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Post by Bro. Freddie on Sept 17, 2007 21:37:48 GMT 12.75
HALLUJAH! Paws is learning!
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Post by Toby Benoit on Sept 18, 2007 11:47:21 GMT 12.75
Of course the act of being baptised is an admission of sin. If we do not first acknowledge that we are sinners, why else would we agree to become baptised?
I always saw it as an admission to the Lord that we recognize ourselves as sinners and that are ready to surender ourselves to His service by undergoing the Baptism to wash away our sins; a service emblematical of the death, burial, and ressurection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
My question is, in verse six, it tells that they were baptised of him in Jordan. If Baptisms as we know them today are a reconstruction of the death, burial, and ressurection of Christ? Was there another meaning in them then? Or was is truly a gesture before the Lord of washing away the sin?
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Sept 18, 2007 19:34:10 GMT 12.75
I think I may see the problem here. We are looking at it the same way, just using different words to express it.
The act of baptism is not a confession of sin, but an act of faith. I'll use Lucas, my eldest, as the example to illustrate my point. When Lucas came under the conviction of the Holy Spirit about his sinful condition, he did something about it. He confessed his sins to the Lord, realized he was a sinner, and asked Jesus to be his personal Saviour. That was his admission of sin! Everyone with me so far? Good! All that happened on a Sunday morning after services.
That night, Lucas came before the church and told them of his experience. That was not a confession of sin, but a profession of faith. In other words, he told the church that he had been saved, and was wanting to follow the Lord in baptism.
A few weeks later, the church granted me the authority to baptize him, which showed the world that he had a newness of life, that he no longer was a follower of Satan, but a follower of Jesus.
There has always been more to baptism than just a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Sure, baptism pictures these, but when speaking of baptism we tend to get lazy and leave the rest out. Baptism is also a picture to the world that a person has been born again. It signifies a death of the old man, and the birth of a new man. It signifies a new walk of life. While baptism doesn't save a person, it is something that the world can see. It shows the world that the person is a new creature with a new Master.
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Post by Paws on Sept 19, 2007 8:47:32 GMT 12.75
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Post by Toby Benoit on Sept 19, 2007 17:36:21 GMT 12.75
So, if it's a symolic event intended for the world to see, then is it necessary to get into heaven?
I was always told by the local preachers that it was a first step of sorts.
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Post by Paws on Sept 19, 2007 19:45:45 GMT 12.75
Now Toby, you know there is but only one way anyone gets into Heaven.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Sept 19, 2007 21:03:46 GMT 12.75
So, if it's a symolic event intended for the world to see, then is it necessary to get into heaven? I was always told by the local preachers that it was a first step of sorts. NO! In Ephesians 2:8,9 we read For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast. If we hold that the Bible is true in every aspect, then it will never contradict itself. So how could baptism save someone since it is a work (something we do)? It can't! Only through faith is someone saved! Question: Was the thief on the cross that asked for forgiveness saved? If you answered YES then where is he today? Jesus told him that he would be with Him in paradise (heaven). So, when was he baptized? He wasn't! Baptism is not necessary for salvation!Baptism IS necessary for a good conscience toward God. Confused? Let me try to clear it up. When someone is saved, they want to tell the whole world about it. I know I did. Baptism is a way to tell the world without using words. Some might say it is a first step of sorts. That is because it is the first step in obedience. We are told to submit to baptism AFTER salvation to show the world that we are now obedient to the Lord without using words.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Sept 20, 2007 6:36:58 GMT 12.75
"Baptism IS necessary for a good conscience toward God."
Now that makes sense! I thought that I was sure that you didn't HAVE to be baptised, but it is something I've heard repeated time and time again by these preachers around here, that you HAVE to be baptised to be right before God.
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Post by Mars on Sept 20, 2007 8:29:19 GMT 12.75
My turn. Considering the arid nature of the area back then as well as now, you can understand why baptism was a public event. Go to any water hole over there and you'll see many people so it would be impossible for baptism to be a private event. Today, in the U.S., baptism has become almost a private event.Many churches do baptism inside the church or in "backwoods" water holes. They have taken the public testimony that is baptism to a private, for our eyes only event.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Sept 20, 2007 13:20:09 GMT 12.75
Mars,
Close, but not quite. From what I have studied, and talked to others, parts of Israel were very arid, and some were wet. Remember the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts? Well, from what I have been told, they were in the area of todays Gaza Strip, and it was down right swampy. Makes sense when you think about it. Why else would Israel give that area to the Palestinians?
I believe that the reason alot of people seem to have baptisms in secret goes back to the Dark Ages when anyone caught being baptized or baptizing others was put to death. There are records of people who were chained to others, some times as many as 20 or so, and were threw in the water to drown. They were told if they wanted to practice baptism then to do it with a chain around their neck.
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Post by Mars on Sept 20, 2007 13:47:32 GMT 12.75
Parts are indeed swampy and there are large rivers but the vast majority of the area is desert or very dry at best. Even in the wet areas, waterholes are the gathering place.
As for the death if caught being baptised, refer to Matthew 5:15;
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
I'd sooner disobey man then disobey God. Death of the body is far better then death of my soul.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Sept 20, 2007 14:23:24 GMT 12.75
I AGREE 100%! I just think that is why a lot of people perfer to have a more secretive baptism than a public one. Another thing is that some may be afraid that some of their so-called friends would look down upon them. It could also be that those who sway they are saved, have reservations and want to keep the option open of living like they were still lost. Just some rambling thoughts on the subject.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Sept 20, 2007 18:44:21 GMT 12.75
Well it did have to pretty arid where John was practicing it since he was dwelling in a desert and eating locusts instead of catfish.
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Post by Paws on Sept 21, 2007 13:36:43 GMT 12.75
I was baptised in an indoor baptismal that sits under the floor of the stage where the pulpit goes. Pretty neat too. I can not tell you how excited I was to get it done too.
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Post by Mars on Sept 22, 2007 0:24:13 GMT 12.75
I think that is the point Bro. Freddie. God wants a public statement and you cannot do that privately. It amazes me that people fear man more then they love God.
That's definetly the truth. It also explains why churches have gone worldly to the point that preachers marry homo partners.How many people say they won't work on Sunday but can be found at Wal-Mart after Sunday services?
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Post by Mars on Sept 22, 2007 0:27:44 GMT 12.75
I was baptised in what the Missionary Preacher correctly called "the worlds largest baptismal". The Pacific Ocean, just off a Panama City beach.
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Post by Paws on Sept 22, 2007 4:46:25 GMT 12.75
Now that's a pool!
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Sept 23, 2007 21:03:48 GMT 12.75
Matthew 3:7-12 (King James Version)
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8. Bring forth therefore fruit meet for repentance. 9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees; therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire. 12. Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Last time we looked at the ministry of John the Baptist, his outward appearance, his food and other things. We saw how his was a simple message, but one that the people needed to hear. Today, we will look at John's message to the religious leaders of the day, and how it affects us in this present time.
In verse 7 we meet the Pharisees and Sadducees for the first time. These people are mentioned throughout the Gospels, so now would be a good time to learn about them. These two groups at one time were virtually identical, but during the period between the Old Testament and New Testament (about 400 years) split to become two separate groups. The Pharisees came from the scribes and the Sadducees came from the priests. One of the main features of the Pharisees was their legal tendencies, while the Sadducees was their social position. In other words, the Pharisees looked for loopholes in the Law for their advantage, and the Sadducees was more worried about their political and social standings then in the spiritual condition of the people. The Pharisees believed in the resurrection, angels and the predestination of man while the Sadducees did not. The Sadducees believed that there was no afterlife and that man had free will. Both of these parties observed strict adherence to the Law, but overlooked the spirit of the Law. So, these are the types of men our Lord had to deal with while here on Earth. Getting back to verse 7 we see that the Pharisees and Sadducees came to where John was baptizing and desired to be baptized of him. Why do you think this was? Could it have been for political reasons or social standing? But notice what John said. John flat out asked them who had warned them of the coming judgment. And he called them a bunch of snakes on top of that! Now remember, the characteristics of a snake is to lie in wait, poison their prey, and then consume them. Kind of fits these men don't you think? But John asked them who had told them to repent. Who had told them that they were guilty of their sins? They could not answer him! They were only looking to be baptized because they thought it might give the an advantage over something or someone. They missed the whole picture of baptism which is a person has repented of their sins and is now walking in a newness of life.
In verse 8 we see the ONLY way that John would baptize someone. They had to prove that they had repented of their sins by the fruit that they bore. The word "meet" has the meaning of being of "weight, value, worth", also '' befitting, becoming, right on the grounds of fitness". In other words, John said that they were to bring forth fruit that showed that they had repented. But what fruit was this? And how were they to "bring it forth" or show it? Brethren, I believe it is the same fruit that we are to show in our lives today. It wasn't some miraculous fruit, but fruit that showed others that the Spirit lived in them and in us today. These fruits are love, grace, mercy, peace and so forth. John wanted to see these fruits in the life of those that had professed repentance before he would baptize them. I don't know how it was immediately after you were saved, but from my own personal experience, I tried to bear these fruits the day after I repented of my sins. I was real young, around 7 or 8, and the day after I was saved, I tried to tell others about Jesus and what He had done for me. It was not that I thought that I had a job to preform, but that I wanted others to know the peace and joy I had in my life. I'm not bragging, but I tried to show these fruits. And I didn't know I was supposed to! This was what John was talking about! He wanted them to show love toward others, mercy to others, and other things that mark the life of someone who has had their life changed by the Lord. And as a side note, I believe that we should be the same way today. Too many times when someone professes Jesus as their Saviour, we look for the first available water when we should be looking for the fruit of salvation.
In verse 9 John begins to refute the arguments he knows that the Pharisees and Sadducees are going to use. John knew that they were going to think that they didn't need to repent because of who they were. To understand this, we need to understand the Jewish mindset. The Jews take great pride in being descended from Abraham. And the mindset during this time, and today as a matter of fact, is that because they are descendants of Abraham that God won't send them to hell. Folks, God doesn't send anyone to hell! It is through their own free choice that a person goes to hell because of their refusal to accept Jesus as their Saviour. Another thing that the Pharisees and Sadducees refused to see was that God doesn't have any grandchildren, only children. They refused to recognize that every person has to have a personal relationship with God. I don't care if your daddy was a preacher for 50 years, unless you have a personal relationship with Jesus as your Saviour, you will spend eternity in hell. The same goes for those who think they are good enough, those who think money will get them to heaven, and so forth. UNLESS YOU HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS AS YOUR SAVIOUR YOU WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN HELL!
In verse 10 we see John using an example of everyday living to drive home his point. This example is one of cutting down a tree. While this could be a prophecy concerning Israel, I believe it is more of an example concerning every person. Let me try and explain. Picture every person as a tree, God as the one who is welding the axe, the fruit as the signs of repentance, and the fire as the lake of fire and brimstone. Every tree (person) who does not bring forth good fruit (the fruit of repentance) is cut down an thrown into the fire (lake of fire). So in essence what John is saying is that if you don't show the effects of salvation, meaning love, grace and so forth, then it won't do any good to baptize you, because you are not saved, and you are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire and brimstone. Folks, it is my firm belief that a person who is saved will show the fruits of salvation in their daily walk of life. One thing more, this verse is NOT talking about a person losing their salvation. If we keep it in context, which was that the Pharisees and Sadducees wanted to be baptized but John wanted to see proof of salvation, there is NO way a person can teach that this verse teaches a person can lose their salvation.
Looking now at verse 11, we notice that John makes a statement that is puzzling to some, but when you break it down, it's not that hard to understand. In the first part of this verse, John tells us he baptized with water unto (with regard to) repentance. When the people repented John would baptize them, but he knew that it was only to show what baptism really is, an act of faith. In the next part of this verse though, we see that John knew that Jesus was mightier than he was, and that he was not even worthy to carry Jesus' sandals. John knew his place. He knew that even though he had a special mission, he was still not as important as the One who followed him. Folks, sometimes we lose sight of the fact that it is not about us, but all about Jesus. We get wrapped up in our own little lives and lose sight of the big picture which is Jesus. John didn't lose sight of the fact that he was only the messenger, not the Message. Notice also that John said he baptized with water, but the One who followed him would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Now, this may open up a can of worms, but I believe the Bible teaches this, and I have a duty to preach the entire Word, not just part of it, even though it might make some on here mad. First, we need to define what a church is. A church is a local, visible assembly of scripturally baptized believers in a covenant relationship to carry out the Great Commission. There is more, but that will suffice for now. I believe that the church was established during Jesus' personal ministry while here on Earth, specifically on the shores of Galilee. The church was NOT established on the Day of Pentecost. That being said, I believe part of John's job was to get ready the people who would make up the first church. On the Day of Pentecost, the church was empowered with the Holy Spirit, or baptized if you will, and that was manifested in tongues of flame (fire). I believe John was speaking of this when he spoke these words.
To better understand verse 12 we need to learn a little about the agricultural practices of that time. After a farmer cut the wheat, he would gather it to the threshing floor, usually a large flat rock or hard trampled ground. He would then use a flail (a long flexible stick) to thresh the wheat. This would separate the wheat from the straw or chaff. After threshing, he would use a winnowing fan (which looks sort of like a wooden pitchfork but with closer tines) to throw the wheat and straw mixture up into the air. A slight breeze would blow the straw and chaff away and allow the heavier wheat to fall back down to the threshing floor. This was repeated until all the straw and chaff were removed and just the wheat remained. The wheat would then be gathered for food, and the straw would be used to feed the animals. The chaff (broken straw and husks) would be used to fuel the fires. Now, keeping all this in mind, let's look at verse 12. John is saying that the Lord has the winnowing fan in His hand. He is getting ready to separate the wheat from the chaff. He will purge, or make ready, His threshing floor. He will gather the wheat into His garner (storage house or barn) and then burn the chaff with a fire that can not be put out. Folks, this is a prophecy that I believe isn't too far off from being fulfilled. The Lord is coming back and He will separate His children (wheat) from those that are not His children (chaff). He will gather His children into heaven (the garner) and then place those who are not His into the lake of fire and brimstone (the unquenchable fire). Are you in the wheat category? Or are you considered chaff?
The gist of John's message is this. It don't matter who you are, or who your ancestors were. Unless you have repented of your sins, you are lost and headed to hell. Baptism won't save you. Only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will. And time is running out. Soon, the King of Kings will separate the saved from the lost. The saved will spend eternity with Him, and the lost will spend eternity in torment. Have you repented of your sins? Where will you spend eternity?
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Post by Paws on Sept 23, 2007 23:19:57 GMT 12.75
Amen! This is a particularly important message for us today because I have personally met so many that have not accepted Christ simply because in their words; "I have done nothing wrong." I guess that is how they interpret the Ten Commandments as the law and since they believe none of them have been violated... Pastor, good luck today and stay cool!
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Sept 24, 2007 0:50:00 GMT 12.75
Thnks. I'm gonna need all your prayers today. I;m already getting nervous, and the service is still 7 hrs. away!
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