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Post by Paws on Sept 29, 2008 9:47:22 GMT 12.75
No he does not have a right to someone elses organs. He may need them and can afford them but that does not mean he gets them. This is one of the scenerios that keeps me from donating organs. Wish I had the right to somebody else's organs!
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Post by Mars on Sept 29, 2008 11:19:07 GMT 12.75
That's donate not borrow Paws.
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Post by Paws on Sept 29, 2008 14:11:51 GMT 12.75
Oh! Never mind.
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Post by Paws on Sept 30, 2008 0:33:21 GMT 12.75
If real estate is going down then it was overpriced to start with. Agreed, given a few variable sets of circumstance.
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Post by Carter Northcutt on Sept 30, 2008 3:38:37 GMT 12.75
Why? Because she had no choice in the matter. And it was forced on her. I am not talking about statutory rape here. Why should a child be brought into this world that for one, it was never wanted and for another it was by someone the woman had no desire to have a child with either. Also, it it were my daughter (if I had one ) I would want the scumbag who forced himself on her castrated at the least.
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Post by Paws on Sept 30, 2008 10:18:56 GMT 12.75
Why? Because she had no choice in the matter. And it was forced on her. I am not talking about statutory rape here. Why should a child be brought into this world that for one, it was never wanted and for another it was by someone the woman had no desire to have a child with either. Also, it it were my daughter (if I had one ) I would want the scumbag who forced himself on her castrated at the least. Yes why. Why kill an innocent child? What did the child do to deserve death? My good friend Manuel A. Ramirez, a Philipino in the USAF, took me to his boyhood home way back in the boonies on Luzon. There he introduced me to his Mother and his Father. I had already met his sister Sylvia who was also USAF, a Captain nurse in fact. It was a wonderful visit and they were wonderful people. Later Manuel told me that His Mother wasn't really his Mother but that he had been born of a surrogate his Father hird as his wife was not able to have children. He said when he first learned this he was angry but it didn't take long for him to realize that if his Father had not done this that he would never have been born . Manuel's Father not only gave himself a son but also gave his son a life. Lots of empty arms are out there ready to hold and love a child who deserves to live even though their life might make others uneasy. When we make decisions for others we need to be really careful, especially when those decisions are irrevocable and result in fatal circumstances.
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Post by Carter Northcutt on Sept 30, 2008 13:06:10 GMT 12.75
That is a far cry from some woman who has been raped. Call it murder or whatever you want, I stick by what I said. Even if the Pope should excommunicate me for it ;D
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Post by Paws on Sept 30, 2008 13:19:54 GMT 12.75
That is a far cry from some woman who has been raped. Call it murder or whatever you want, I stick by what I said. Even if the Pope should excommunicate me for it ;D The point is the child didn't do anything so how does killing the child correct or punish the act of rape or restore the Mother's virtue? Yes the situations are different. In one case the child was wanted by everyone and in the other unexpected by everyone. In the end though it is the child that lives or dies, not the parties contributing to the problem. And you should be excommunicated.
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Post by Carter Northcutt on Oct 1, 2008 0:22:05 GMT 12.75
I don't see it that way. Before you know it people will say having sex with a condom, using birth control, etc, is wrong because you're taking away a child's chance to even be born. Heck, they might even connect people who perform oral sex to the giant from, "Jack and the Beanstalk" as baby eaters ;D All I can say to that is..."I want my baby back, baby back, baby back ribs" ;D ;D
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Post by Mars on Oct 1, 2008 1:37:51 GMT 12.75
If the child of the rape is carried to term can the mother kill it anytime during her life? It is the same child and life before birth that it is after. If you cannot allow the child to be killed after it's birth then you should not condone killing the same life before birth.
By that same logic a woman can also claim any pregnancy as the result of a rape.
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kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Oct 1, 2008 3:54:20 GMT 12.75
Hi Folks,
Thanks a lot; Great dialogue/dance around the topic of abortion!
I've been reading through all the great posts, really trying to listen and giving thought to all the points. But, I got behind in the conversation so am trying to catch up by creating a summary document and bulleting everyone's main points to the best of my little brain's comprehension.
I'll try to post the summary here so folks can let me know if I heard them correctly. There are also a few things that I wrote that may have been misunderstood so I'd like to try to clarify those as well.
I was on a roll with this process when my attention had to turn to a conversation with Constantine and now I've got to get to work.
I'll be back in touch soon with my input, allow time for responses and then maybe we can wrap up this abortion thread and move onto the next one.
Anyone else want to get their input on the board about abortion?
kj
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kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Oct 2, 2008 1:35:32 GMT 12.75
Hi Folks, A bit of history: On 9/20/2008 Toby B. shared with us a series of statements regarding various controversial topics. The first one was: I do not agree with abortion rights. We settled in around the campfire to have a chat on the topic. I asked if we could all adhere to the following agreements: - Basic Rules of the Forum as laid down by Paws: courtesy and respect And, - strive not to make assumptions or take things personally - strive to be open-minded, to listen and respect all points of view - strive to accept where others are coming from - suspend judgment as much as possible - maintain a position of curiosity; seek to understand not to persuade - maintain a sense of discovery while looking for new insights - be sincere and speak from the heart with meaning - try to write clearly, briefly and not go on and on and on. I then asked a series of questions and presented some possible scenarios for consideration. I really appreciated reading everyone’s input and I think we’ve done fairly well, so far, with regards to the agreements. Now the talking stick appears to have moved around the circle and is back in my lap. I greatly appreciate Toby’s call-out…no well-researched answers out of some text book; get to your gut feelings. Hahahaha…good one! One of my first questions was: What abortion rights are we referring to? It was a sincere question to you folk, but also the first one I had to consider if I wanted to take a one-line stance on the topic. This is what I came up with: As a nurse, I truly, in my gut, agree with consumer and patient rights related to health care. Abortion is a health care matter so these rights also apply in this conversation. I also agree, in my gut, that all humans have basic rights: • To Life • To Health and health care • To Nondiscrimination and equality • To Security of person • To Liberty • To Privacy • To Information • To Freedom from cruel, inhuman, degrading treatment • To Decide the number and spacing of children • To Enjoy the benefits of scientific progress • To Freedom of thought and religion I also agree, deep in my gut, in the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for all. My gut therefore tells me that if women are denied the right to an abortion, then all the other human rights are also violated. Also, my deep gut feelings are telling me that I need to be very concerned about the movement to classify all forms of birth control as abortion. Therefore, after great reflection, thought, and prayer while considering all of your valuable input; I have found the clarity and courage to respond: I agree with abortion rights. However, it’s not that easy or simple. I want to respond to your other comments from my head, heart and gut. In order to do so, I’m going to reply to the respective posts. kj
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Post by Paws on Oct 2, 2008 2:55:35 GMT 12.75
You may agree with abortion rights but it simply doesn't exist. Who creates life; man or God? God does grant us the freedom of choice and with it comes the responsibility of bearing the guilt of disobedience to His direction. In that vein I agree that every person has the right to make their own choices even in violation of God's will or man's laws. But remember along with those choices comes responsibility. There are no "grey" areas, no excuses that are acceptable. One merely is right or wrong. Those who choose abortion are simply wrong. Those who have promoted and advertised legalized abortion are simply wrong. Planned parenthood organizations are simply wrong. The doctor who performs an abortion is simply wrong. What is the primary focus of the Hippocratic Oath? " "Declare the past, diagnose the present, foretell the future; practice these acts. As to diseases, make a habit of two things — to help, or at least to do no harm." - Hippocrates, Epidemics, Bk. I, Sect. XI "Primum non nocere" (Do No Harm) - Galen "... I will treat without exception all who seek my ministrations, so long as the treatment of others is not compromised thereby,..." (Extracted from today's Hippocratic Oath. I fail to see how an abortion will "do no harm" or is not a compromise of another's health when an innocent human being is put to death without cause or Juris Prudence. How many of the young ladies who have abortions experience post procedural psychological difficulties after having an abortion? Doesn't this very fact raise questions as to whether or not abortion is right in one's mind? Pregnancy is not a disease. It doesn't interfere with the normal functions of the body because the body adjusts to accommodate changing functions. Abortion is not a health issue or a medical procedure because it does not respond to a disease. Given time pregnancy is self correcting allowed to run its course. Abortion is a social issue born of a selfish society that would rather ignore its own responsibility to its own members more akin to "group think" than concern, care or love for that society.
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Post by Carter Northcutt on Oct 2, 2008 7:05:08 GMT 12.75
Actually the oral sex reference was a joke.
I do not believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control or because you someone forgot to wear a condom or take birth control medicine. If I had a relative or a friend get raped and become pregnant from that I would totally support her if she decided to have an abortion. Who gave anyone else the right to tell a rape victim, "Sorry, but even though you were raped you gotta have the baby against your will too"?
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Post by Mars on Oct 2, 2008 8:35:13 GMT 12.75
The same person that says, "sorry little child but you must die".
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kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Oct 2, 2008 9:25:49 GMT 12.75
Hi, I'm in the midst of a bunch of work reviews but had a pause so thought I'd check back in here. I was going to go back to address some of the other points brought up in previous posts but figured I might as well start here. I thought the topic was about Abortion Rights given Toby's statement was "I do not agree with abortion rights." No one responded when I asked for clarification about what exactly we were talking about with regards to abortion rights. We did not delineate whether we were talking about human rights, women's rights, potential person rights, etc. No one even wrote back and said we are talking about whether abortion is right or wrong. There's a difference in my book. Certainly, the question of who creates life, what constitutes a person, what constitutes murder, what the bible says, who provides care, social responsibility, physical/social dependency, population, are all extremely important corollary points. I may think that women who choose abortion are totally wrong no matter what the situation. I may think they are killing a potential person. I may think such women should burn in hell for eternity. I may think they are causing the downfall of society. I may think that doctors who perform abortions are also wrong and violating the hippocratic oath. However, I thought we were talking about whether we agreed with 'abortion rights' or not. As to the side topic whether abortion is related to health, ...the World Health Organization reports 670,000 women die from pregnancy related complications every year (not including abortion); that's 1800 dead women every day. In developed countries, 13x more women die in pregnancy than they do by having an abortion. How is it not a matter of health? Perhaps it's really a matter of population control. Also with regards to your comments about pregnancy and health: There are two different and well-recognized approaches to childbirth: the medical model of childbirth (which does indeed approach pregnancy as a disease and as a problem that needs to be managed) and the midwifery model of childbirth with the contrary approach. I have a rich history as a midwife and therefore agree that pregnancy and childbirth are not diseases or problems; even though the risk of death for the mom and babe are always very real possibilities. Anyways, I agree that the topic of abortion also invites us to explore the social, political, ethical, religious, and moral realms, including the extent that we want government regulation in our lives. All the points that you and others have brought up along these various avenues are valid and are also of great interest to me. I was hoping to go down those roads, as well as address some misunderstandings, like about my comments related to Palin and her beautiful child. (Toby, if I don't re-enter this conversation please know that your synopsis of my comments is not where I was coming from at all.) I asked if folks were willing to go into this conversation with a willingness to adhere to the agreements because I knew we were entering into a potentially polarized exchange. We all certainly have free will and the right to tell everyone they are wrong, they're going to hell, etc., but then we must also take responsibility for the consequences. I really love Jesus. I may be living in some fantasy world and my illusions of Jesus may be completely wrong...but I experience great compassion and understanding coming from him. I may not know anything, but I sure don't remember Jesus picking up stones and murdering anyone. I can't help but feel like you see no value or have any interest in the conversational agreements. I knew that no one had answered my question in that regard but I went forward anyway. Paws, am I wrong? Do you feel like you were trying to suspend judgement as much as possible when you wrote your last post? Perhaps I just pushed the right buttons and it pushed you over the edge. Maybe, but none-the-less... I can't help but feel totally dissed with regards to the agreements. I am very interested in participating in conversations with folks who have very different views than mine. However, I know how much non-violent communication processes and conversational agreements help such endeavors. And to be honest, it just isn't productive or fun for me, i.e. not worth it to me unless other folks want to participate along those lines. I value this forum and all the great discussions that take place here. I feel no great need to carry on a dialogue about these controversial topics if it's going to damage potential friendships. Anyways, I've got to get back to work. kj You may agree with abortion rights but it simply doesn't exist. Who creates life; man or God? God does grant us the freedom of choice and with it comes the responsibility of bearing the guilt of disobedience to His direction. In that vein I agree that every person has the right to make their own choices even in violation of God's will or man's laws. But remember along with those choices comes responsibility. There are no "grey" areas, no excuses that are acceptable. One merely is right or wrong. Those who choose abortion are simply wrong. Those who have promoted and advertised legalized abortion are simply wrong. Planned parenthood organizations are simply wrong. The doctor who performs an abortion is simply wrong. What is the primary focus of the Hippocratic Oath? " "Declare the past, diagnose the present, foretell the future; practice these acts. As to diseases, make a habit of two things — to help, or at least to do no harm." - Hippocrates, Epidemics, Bk. I, Sect. XI "Primum non nocere" (Do No Harm) - Galen "... I will treat without exception all who seek my ministrations, so long as the treatment of others is not compromised thereby,..." (Extracted from today's Hippocratic Oath. I fail to see how an abortion will "do no harm" or is not a compromise of another's health when an innocent human being is put to death without cause or Juris Prudence. How many of the young ladies who have abortions experience post procedural psychological difficulties after having an abortion? Doesn't this very fact raise questions as to whether or not abortion is right in one's mind? Pregnancy is not a disease. It doesn't interfere with the normal functions of the body because the body adjusts to accommodate changing functions. Abortion is not a health issue or a medical procedure because it does not respond to a disease. Given time pregnancy is self correcting allowed to run its course. Abortion is a social issue born of a selfish society that would rather ignore its own responsibility to its own members more akin to "group think" than concern, care or love for that society.
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Post by Paws on Oct 2, 2008 9:40:05 GMT 12.75
Actually the oral sex reference was a joke.
I do not believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control or because you someone forgot to wear a condom or take birth control medicine. If I had a relative or a friend get raped and become pregnant from that I would totally support her if she decided to have an abortion. Who gave anyone else the right to tell a rape victim, "Sorry, but even though you were raped you gotta have the baby against your will too"? God!
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Post by Paws on Oct 2, 2008 9:44:07 GMT 12.75
Hi, I'm in the midst of a bunch of work reviews but had a pause so thought I'd check back in here. I was going to go back to address some of the other points brought up in previous posts but figured I might as well start here. I thought the topic was about Abortion Rights given Toby's statement was "I do not agree with abortion rights." No one responded when I asked for clarification about what exactly we were talking about with regards to abortion rights. We did not delineate whether we were talking about human rights, women's rights, potential person rights, etc. No one even wrote back and said we are talking about whether abortion is right or wrong. There's a difference in my book. Certainly, the question of who creates life, what constitutes a person, what constitutes murder, what the bible says, who provides care, social responsibility, physical/social dependency, population, are all extremely important corollary points. I may think that women who choose abortion are totally wrong no matter what the situation. I may think they are killing a potential person. I may think such women should burn in hell for eternity. I may think they are causing the downfall of society. I may think that doctors who perform abortions are also wrong and violating the hippocratic oath. However, I thought we were talking about whether we agreed with 'abortion rights' or not. As to the side topic whether abortion is related to health, ...the World Health Organization reports 670,000 women die from pregnancy related complications every year (not including abortion); that's 1800 dead women every day. In developed countries, 13x more women die in pregnancy than they do by having an abortion. How is it not a matter of health? Perhaps it's really a matter of population control. Also with regards to your comments about pregnancy and health: There are two different and well-recognized approaches to childbirth: the medical model of childbirth (which does indeed approach pregnancy as a disease and as a problem that needs to be managed) and the midwifery model of childbirth with the contrary approach. I have a rich history as a midwife and therefore agree that pregnancy and childbirth are not diseases or problems; even though the risk of death for the mom and babe are always very real possibilities. Anyways, I agree that the topic of abortion also invites us to explore the social, political, ethical, religious, and moral realms, including the extent that we want government regulation in our lives. All the points that you and others have brought up along these various avenues are valid and are also of great interest to me. I was hoping to go down those roads, as well as address some misunderstandings, like about my comments related to Palin and her beautiful child. (Toby, if I don't re-enter this conversation please know that your synopsis of my comments is not where I was coming from at all.) I asked if folks were willing to go into this conversation with a willingness to adhere to the agreements because I knew we were entering into a potentially polarized exchange. We all certainly have free will and the right to tell everyone they are wrong, they're going to hell, etc., but then we must also take responsibility for the consequences. I really love Jesus. I may be living in some fantasy world and my illusions of Jesus may be completely wrong...but I experience great compassion and understanding coming from him. I may not know anything, but I sure don't remember Jesus picking up stones and murdering anyone. I can't help but feel like you see no value or have any interest in the conversational agreements. I knew that no one had answered my question in that regard but I went forward anyway. Paws, am I wrong? Do you feel like you were trying to suspend judgement as much as possible when you wrote your last post? Perhaps I just pushed the right buttons and it pushed you over the edge. Maybe, but none-the-less... I can't help but feel totally dissed with regards to the agreements. I am very interested in participating in conversations with folks who have very different views than mine. However, I know how much non-violent communication processes and conversational agreements help such endeavors. And to be honest, it just isn't productive or fun for me, i.e. not worth it to me unless other folks want to participate along those lines. I value this forum and all the great discussions that take place here. I feel no great need to carry on a dialogue about these controversial topics if it's going to damage potential friendships. Anyways, I've got to get back to work. kj You may agree with abortion rights but it simply doesn't exist. Who creates life; man or God? God does grant us the freedom of choice and with it comes the responsibility of bearing the guilt of disobedience to His direction. In that vein I agree that every person has the right to make their own choices even in violation of God's will or man's laws. But remember along with those choices comes responsibility. There are no "grey" areas, no excuses that are acceptable. One merely is right or wrong. Those who choose abortion are simply wrong. Those who have promoted and advertised legalized abortion are simply wrong. Planned parenthood organizations are simply wrong. The doctor who performs an abortion is simply wrong. What is the primary focus of the Hippocratic Oath? " "Declare the past, diagnose the present, foretell the future; practice these acts. As to diseases, make a habit of two things — to help, or at least to do no harm." - Hippocrates, Epidemics, Bk. I, Sect. XI "Primum non nocere" (Do No Harm) - Galen "... I will treat without exception all who seek my ministrations, so long as the treatment of others is not compromised thereby,..." (Extracted from today's Hippocratic Oath. I fail to see how an abortion will "do no harm" or is not a compromise of another's health when an innocent human being is put to death without cause or Juris Prudence. How many of the young ladies who have abortions experience post procedural psychological difficulties after having an abortion? Doesn't this very fact raise questions as to whether or not abortion is right in one's mind? Pregnancy is not a disease. It doesn't interfere with the normal functions of the body because the body adjusts to accommodate changing functions. Abortion is not a health issue or a medical procedure because it does not respond to a disease. Given time pregnancy is self correcting allowed to run its course. Abortion is a social issue born of a selfish society that would rather ignore its own responsibility to its own members more akin to "group think" than concern, care or love for that society. Well all the views are proper except Carter's cause he is just stupid and doesn't have a vagina! (Just kidding Carter.) No I'm not suspending judgement. Abortion is murder cut and dry. However, the pregnanat lady has the God given right to make the wrong decision and the blood be on her hands. Unless of course she was following the well meaning advice of her doctor or possibly Carter.
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kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Oct 2, 2008 9:44:31 GMT 12.75
Actually the oral sex reference was a joke.
I do not believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control or because you someone forgot to wear a condom or take birth control medicine. If I had a relative or a friend get raped and become pregnant from that I would totally support her if she decided to have an abortion. Who gave anyone else the right to tell a rape victim, "Sorry, but even though you were raped you gotta have the baby against your will too"? Thanks. I feel some compassion in your words. I also know that abortion is not a reasonable form of birth control. How bizarre given the ramifications. Mars wrote that 98% of abortions are performed as a form of birth control. It would be nice to know where that statistic is coming from because it certainly doesn't reflect anything I've run across or my own experiential reference base. I've only known one woman, with mental health disabilities, over my 35 yrs of experience in this arena who approached abortion like it was a form of birth control. Needless to say, she needed a lot of education.
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kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Oct 2, 2008 9:49:52 GMT 12.75
Actually the oral sex reference was a joke.
I do not believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control or because you someone forgot to wear a condom or take birth control medicine. If I had a relative or a friend get raped and become pregnant from that I would totally support her if she decided to have an abortion. Who gave anyone else the right to tell a rape victim, "Sorry, but even though you were raped you gotta have the baby against your will too"? God! What if she doesn't believe in your God? Even if she does, isn't it her right to choose to face the wrath of God and go to hell for eternity?
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