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Post by Paws on Jul 24, 2007 5:30:41 GMT 12.75
Make sure you catch Headline News today and this azzhole with his penned up hogs and dogs! He says it isn't cruelty as the dogs proced to rip up the hogs and he takes the money from the spectators. He says y'all just don't understand it. Y'all "just don't get it! He says ya got to train the dogs for hog hunting and that's all he is doing. I've been all over looking for a place to sqwak to CNN about interviewing him and allowing him to say that he is a hunter and representing himself as typical. If you know of a bitch spot please let me know.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Jul 24, 2007 8:00:18 GMT 12.75
Paws, I've done a good bit of hog hunting and I've done quite a bit o it with cur dogs and bull dogs. I've even attended the hog dog bay trials in Loxahatchee a couple of times.
He's right. If you've never experienced it, you could never appreciate it. There's a lot of history in a good line of hog dogs and the mannner in which they're trained.
It's said that a very few dogs are trained to harm the hogs, but a real hog dog is trained to bay, catch, and hold the hog while inflicting minimal damage. I doubt anything you've seen on TV will cast any sort of positive light on it.
I can give you a brief overview of the history and heritage if you care to read it. Please don't jump on the bandwagon against all of us by something you may have heard or seen from only one of us.
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Post by Mars on Jul 24, 2007 8:05:33 GMT 12.75
Do I really want to get this arguement started over on this forum? I'll let you know.
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Post by Paws on Jul 24, 2007 9:20:56 GMT 12.75
Yes Mars please do cause we never have any! Toby, anything done to an animal that constitutes cruelty or torture especially when it is not necessary is just plain wrong. Hogs are more intelligent than dogs and I won't stand for dog matches. Matter of fact my blood really boils when I think about it. You can tell me all the history you want about training hog dogs using live hogs. You can do the same about slavery, abortion, and so on. Doesn't justify any of it. Take that same hog and kill it, butcher it and serve up chops, ribs and BBQ and I don't have a problem with it. Take a dog on a hunt to sniff out and track the bugger; same story. No excuse though for penning them up together and encouraging a dog to scare the hell out of the hog and gnaw on him. Them dogs will track naturally given a little encouragement. Bad enough to think you and Brian are out there crawling through the cypress and mangroes scaring the hell out of what you plan to catch and release to the frying pan.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Jul 24, 2007 11:44:50 GMT 12.75
Yeah, Mars has got them dumbasses on the run in NAHC. I haven't even bothered to chime in because he's made every point I could think of already. ;D Phil, don't think I'm trying to pull your short hairs, but a pig is a pig and you can train a dog to trail and catch a hog without the aid of a live hog, but if you want to teach that dog not to injure the hog when he catches it, you can only teach that by putting him on one and showing him how to do it. I promise, although hogs are intelligent, they get over it and go right back to being hogs. I never took any with dogs that I killed that night. Either they were brought to a pen and fed out for a couple of weeks on corn before they went to the freezer, or it was a barring trip and we caught and castrated every boar we could. Once the nuts were removed, I'd swab him good with sulfur paste and dock his tail to identify him as a barr. Makes for better meat for whoever encounters him next.
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Post by Mars on Jul 24, 2007 12:46:10 GMT 12.75
OK. A dog is a dog and is going to do what a dog does and that applies to any animal. The point is that the dog can be trained to do what it naturaly does for the benefit of humans. It cannot be trained to do what it cannot do naturaly. If it floats a persons boat to fight two animals against each other then I will not oppose them doing so. I may not agree with it and that is my choice as much as it is their's to do what they want.
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Post by Paws on Jul 24, 2007 14:34:28 GMT 12.75
Well if it is the peoples right to do what they want then I choose to initiate , pass, and enforce laws against such behavior. In fact I'd rather see the handlers in the pits in death matches at gun point with me fondeling the trigger. Here and every other of the 50 states fighting dogs is against the law. In 48 it is a felony. I do not know the implications of one animal being a hog but I'd bet if hard pressed that I could debate a conviction out of a grand jury with a little effort. As far as a dog injuring a hog on a hunt you got to remember that the hog is in open territory where he can get under brush or into wallos he is familiar with where the dog can't or won't go rather than caged up where he is defenseless. Probably the best way to assure that the dog doesn't injure the hog though is to simply leave the dog at home. In a pen a coon hasn't got a chance but to climb out but in the woods a coon will take a dog to water and drown him to protect himself.
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Post by Brikatw on Jul 24, 2007 16:26:52 GMT 12.75
Just a short bit on this from me. Please understand, I personally prefer to run the hogs myself without dogs. BUT, I have also been in on hunts with dogs. Most of the folks I know who use dogs to hunt hogs are very careful about the situations they will let the critters get themselves into. Just like Phil said, the coon will drown a dog or just gflat tear him up. A hog will kill the dog or just rip him plumb open. The dog literally HAS to grab the hog's nose to keep from being torn up. The fact that someone has decided to make a sport of the training and the idiot who is training the dogs chose to make a buck off it is unfortunate. The old one bad apple senerio. Without exception, the folks I know who have hog dogs and train them, NEVER let the dogs and hogs get so into the fight in the pen to cause any injury. I gotta straddle the fence on this one guys. Dogs should not be allowed to injure a penned hog and visa versa which will happen if the trainer is not on top of what he is doing. Seems to me this meat head is out there just trying to make a dollar and has NO INTEREST in truly hunting the dogs. To be honest, if you watch some of the many videos out about hog hunting with dogs, you will see them leave the dogs on bay much too long before taking a shot. This is done just for the camera. Kind of like the fool I saw the other day, shooting a turkey with a bow at over 70 yards. The arrow penatration was 6 inches and the brd flew off. They watched it fly for almost 1/2 mile I would guess as it did a big circle around them and landed about 300 yards from the shot. they still had to track it from there.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Jul 24, 2007 17:57:47 GMT 12.75
"then I choose to initiate , pass, and enforce laws against such behavior." What then would make you any different than the PETA whackos that want to pass laws against hunting because they don't want a poor innocent deer to be shot and die frightened and running for his life?
I'm gonna be real careful here on account of this is your barbecue and I'm enjoying it, BUT... What gives one man the right to legislate what another man can do with his own personal property. In this case a dog and a hog.
To use an analogy of Mar's, if I want to take a hammer to my new car, what do you care? It's mine! That doesn't make it okay for you to take a hammer to my car, or for me to take a hammer to yours, but if it's my own presonal property being treated in that manner it's only my business.
Domestic animals are the property of private individuals and there shouldn't be any reason to legislate further.
I respect you too much to think you're serious that you'd hold a gun to my head and make me fight in a pit for training bulldogs to herd, bay, and catch hogs. Just because you ain't been around it doesn't mean you should judge it so harshly. For a moment there, I thought you'd been copy and pasting some of Ingrid Newkirks philosohpy. ;D
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Post by Paws on Jul 24, 2007 22:47:28 GMT 12.75
Three things; rule of law, societial norms, and respect for civilization. Without those society is no better than a collection of feudal warlords where everybody runs their own way and some who run rampant over others simply because they are strong enough to do so. What is the difference between me and PETA passing laws? There is none as long as they choose to use the legal avenues at their disposal to do so. If those old boys are within the boundaries of the law I have no reason to challenge them outside of the law. They get in my mess kit outside of the law then that is a different story. Same thing with dog fighters, hunting ranches/farms, free range advocates, bow hunters, and so on. I don't agree with every law on the books and I think there are probably some that need to be removed, modified and maybe some new ones added. I expect most everybody feels that way. We had an old boy right here in Athens county back in the mid 60's who shot a deer out of season on his own property and got caught and ticketed. He went to court and was found guilty of something or the other and had a fine imposed. Well Smitty was a pretty smart feller but this thing moved kind of fast and old Judge Goldsberry noticed he looked kind of puzzled and asked him if there was something that he was confused about. Smitty said yes sir he just did not understand why he couldn't shoot his own deer on his own property whenever he wanted to do so. Judge Goldsberry said "Well Mister Smith it might be your property but I believe the deer and all the other game belong to the state of Ohio." Smitty replied, "Now let me make sure I understand this; my property but the game belongs to the state of Ohio?" "Now you got it;" Goldsberry remarked. "Well sir; Smitty said to the judge, "How much time do you reckon I ought to give the state to get their damned game off my property?" "Twenty four hours sound good to you?" Goldsberry dismissed the fine and the case with prejudice. That was the beginnings of Ohio farmers being able to obtain predation permits or virtually write their own tags for removing varmints or destructive game animals. Society struggles to find the right balance to meet the needs of all of the people without a lot consistency where special interest groups squeak the wheel but for the present it's the way we do things and until something better, or worse, comes along I suppose it is how we will continue to do things. Presently society collectively makes the decisions for those entities perceived to not be able to make decisions for themselves or unable to defend their better interests and acts accordingly. It's just like Texas weather; hang around long enough and it'll change.
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Post by Paws on Jul 24, 2007 23:08:25 GMT 12.75
Brian Said: You guys know there was a really good example of this on the same news cast yesterday. Some old boy, USAF retiree in Georgia, had got hm a lawn care company going with the employees wearing bikinis. The girls looked great and were attracting a lot of attention. Business was booming and they were making a ton of money. Now, how long do you suppose it will be before this old boy's phone starts ringing with calls from; ACLU, "Why wasn't there no queer boys out there?" NOW "How come these girls are being exploited as sex objects?", OSHA "Why are those girls safety shoes, goggles, chaps, gloves and long sleeves?" FLSA "Are the managers and owners required to wear bikinis?" ....and life goes on
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Post by Mars on Jul 25, 2007 5:01:08 GMT 12.75
Careful, that may come back and bite you in the rearend one day.
California is now considering a law to make the spaying/neutering of dogs mandatory for any dog without papers.
When society deems it better for society that you no longer own property of any kind are you going to agree?
Respect does not come by dictatorship.
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Post by Mars on Jul 25, 2007 5:03:09 GMT 12.75
Ask HOOTERS owners.
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Post by Paws on Jul 25, 2007 5:16:26 GMT 12.75
Careful, that may come back and bite you in the rearend one day. California is now considering a law to make the spaying/neutering of dogs mandatory for any dog without papers. When society deems it better for society that you no longer own property of any kind are you going to agree? Respect does not come by dictatorship. The county already charges ten dollars more to tag a dog that has not been neutered unless it is pure bred with papers and intended to be bred. So this is something on the way evrywhere and all as a result of the butt wads who run the puppy farms, and irresponsible pet owners who let their animals roam at large and drop litters willie nillie every year. That's how we ended up in the rescue/foster business. I already did remember; I was in the military! If the earth stands long enough that is probably in our future as well. Gonna be tough to collect property taxes though!
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Post by Paws on Jul 25, 2007 8:24:17 GMT 12.75
Ahhhh! H (o)(o)TERS!
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Post by Toby Benoit on Jul 25, 2007 8:50:27 GMT 12.75
"If those old boys are within the boundaries of the law I have no reason to challenge them outside of the law. They get in my mess kit outside of the law then that is a different story. Same thing with dog fighters, hunting ranches/farms, free range advocates, bow hunters, and so on." Yep, I agree there, if they aren't breaking a law, I figure a man's entitled to do as he pleases with his own property. It's your right to want to pass a law preventing him from his recreation, but it's mine to be on the other side saying, "Hell no, we have too many laws already!" In fact, I want to pass legislation requiring all legislation passed afterward to first require human sacrifice. If they're totaly commited to bring about change for society's good and not just their own, then let them prove their case by becoming a martyr for their cause.
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Post by Paws on Jul 25, 2007 10:21:04 GMT 12.75
I thought you were Catholic?
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Post by Toby Benoit on Jul 25, 2007 10:33:28 GMT 12.75
Not practicing. I just gotta fake it until after the wedding! ;D
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Post by Mars on Jul 26, 2007 0:29:33 GMT 12.75
I disagree. Humans tend to get along better without laws then with them. Law does not and cannot change human behavior but only inflicts a punishment for those behaviors. If laws worked then we wouldn't need laws. Respect civilization? Heck no! I'll take my chances in the wild first. Societal norms only apply to those within that society however, anti-social behavior does have a benfit to the society as well. Truthfuly, how is that any different then what we have now? The dog/hog issue is just such a case. What the owner of the dog and hog do with them is not effecting society or non-participents one iota yet some have enacted laws against it simply because they can.
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Post by Mars on Jul 26, 2007 0:32:22 GMT 12.75
After the wedding then it's her turn to fake it!
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