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Post by shiloh on Mar 24, 2006 9:28:35 GMT 12.75
Alright, I once took a piece of red hot steel and hit it with a hammer to bend it. That's about the extent of my vast blacksmithing experience. Now what? I am interested in having the skills and equipment required to make simple gun parts, like muzzleloading hammers, and triggers, etc. Eventually, I'd like to try my hand at barrel making and other cool old-school gunsmithing skills. Any advice on what to get to start me out? Maybe a great beginners book or something?
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Post by Two Tales on Mar 24, 2006 22:49:51 GMT 12.75
Shiloh,
Smithing is in sense much like being a gunsmith..not the occupation...the required time and training...books are great and there are a lot of them out there..and I assume you have a leg up with some basic metalurigal knowledge..a good forge for a start, it don't have to be big or fancy, some hammers of different weights and shapes/uses...a good anvil...tongs...gotta have tongs..metal stuff gets kinda hot when ya leave it lay around in a fire for very long...files, rasps, chisles...benders (you can make these your ownself after ya get the hang of it) just a suggestion here and then I'm gone to let the pros take over, find yourself a blacksmith shop close to home..(might be a smitty in one of the re-enactment groups) and see if he'll show you some stuff and maybe play around his forge every now and again...
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Post by shiloh on Mar 25, 2006 2:10:51 GMT 12.75
My sutlery has a forge and 2 of them already do simple blacksmithing there. I have land where I will eventually be building on and moving to where I also plan to build a blacksmith shop alongside the gunsmithing shop. I know in the olden times the blacksmith was generally also the gunsmith which was fine in the era when the muzzleloader was the high tech weapon. Today gunsmithing and blacksmithing are almost totally disconnected. I'd love to have the time to go to a blacksmithing school like I did with gunsmithing, but there's just time for one such adventure in my life. There aren't any true full-time blacksmiths around here that I can tell.
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Post by Paws on Mar 25, 2006 2:35:17 GMT 12.75
Shiloh if you go the Christopher's Tide Water Forge site there is a link to an organization of Smiths. Bet you a donut you can find one close through that. There is also some limited information on training and demonstrations. Pawpaw Wilson's site is still active as well although the emphasis there now is on his book sales; which might be a good idea. Christopher seemed to think that Pawpaw was pretty much the National Treasure of Smiths.
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Post by Two Tales on Mar 25, 2006 5:02:07 GMT 12.75
Shiloh,
I wasn't impling that you need to go to a school full time (although that lux would be nice) Just that it's not learned over night a lot of trial and error goes along with the learning process..My GG Grandpa was a full bore smith and also a part time gunsmith...he passed down some of that knowledge to my Granddad and my Dad who also taught me some of it...very first thing I remember making was a square steel block of about 3x3x3 inches..that I had to cut exactly in half with a hacksaw so Dad could check the integrity of the metal and the forge welding.... Dad built a forge that burned coal/wood/charcoal that we used in the home shop....I really don't have the space here to explain that process but it was made from a very large solid truck wheel, some fire bricks, some large black iron pipe, some flexable ducting and a squirrel cage fan....started out with a hand cranked forge fan..(wanna guess who had to turn the crank ;D ;D...I would love to have the room for a set up like you are planning...maybe someday...Mom want's me to move back home and open up a woodworking/metal,etc. shop...says I could put it behind her house...just aint sure I want to be that close all the time ;D ;D ;D
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Post by shiloh on Mar 25, 2006 7:10:00 GMT 12.75
I just wish I'd have stayed at the gunsmithing school a few months longer and taken their farrier course because it dealt a lot with blacksmithing. I am actually toying with the idea of someday buying and outfitting a Civil War era travelling forge. Ever seen one? They are about the coolest things ever next to cannons. But that'd be a while since the wife would currently try shoving me into the thing as it cooks if I were to drop $15k on one right now. I been meaning to ask. What was it hat killed ol PawPaw? I recall he "burned a pipe" or something but didn't know what y'all were talking about at the time. Anyway, I'm gone to Bridgeport to fight the Rebs off so I won't check back until Monday assuming I'm not killed or captured. ;D
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Post by Paws on Mar 25, 2006 8:00:25 GMT 12.75
I don't recall specifically. There was a term associated with it that reminded me of a Ferrier and it seemed to emulate a vicious pneumonia and was caused by inhalation of fumes being burned. You might check the threads in the Blacksmith Shop I think it is discussed in there.
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Post by Paws on Mar 25, 2006 8:48:11 GMT 12.75
Well darn it Shiloh, if Christopher were here I'm sure he would say; "Get it hot and hit it!" Then of course he would refer you to Pawp;aw and Pawpaw would send you to this link: www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/getstart/index.htm know because I tracked it through his site. Then he would say; "Stick with it soldier, learn a little more every day, and don't quit until you are real good at it!"
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Post by Christopher on Mar 26, 2006 13:08:31 GMT 12.75
I wish Paw Paw were still with us. I will tell you that there are a number of full-time smiths in TN, some of the best I know. There are about ten times that number in very skilled part-time smiths, too. Here's a map of smiths who participate on The Outpost at TKN: www.frappr.com/neotribalmetalsmiths Perhaps you can find someone through that. Larry Harley is having a hammer-in at his place in Bristol on the weekend of May 5-6 this year - I'll be there, along with about 50 others. Lots to be learned there. Larry's site is Lonesome Pine Knives, directions there. My own opinion on making stuff for guns, is that it's going to take awhile to develop the skills. To get what you want requires you to know your material, hammer control, finishing techniques, and be able to begin the project from concept through execution... not a weekend task. I'm not trying to be discouraging - quite the opposite - but you need to know this is more than a mild undertaking. I've been hitting hot steel for 7 years or more now, and I'd be very cautious about making gun parts. Simple mechanicals, like triggers and pins - perhaps. Barrels? Nope. Not at my level. While my experience is definatly slanted towards knives, Wayne Goddard's books "the joy of knifemaking" and "the $50 knife shop" are great starts on the basic tooling, techniques, and approach to making things from steel. Apply the lessons there to what you want to make, and you'll be off to a good educational start. Being there, and working with experienced smiths, is a priceless opportunity, and I reccomend you take it up.
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Post by Christopher on Mar 26, 2006 13:41:53 GMT 12.75
The local ABANA chapter might be helpful, too... aac.abana-chapter.com/As for getting started, the bare essentials are: Hammer, Anvil, Forge. From there, make or buy tongs, start designing what you want, and get it hot and hit it. A great small-scale, and cheap, beginner forge is the "beancan" style. I use an old coffee can, line it with Kaowool (an insulating silicon fabric about an inch thick, stable up to 2600 F) and coat that with a thin layer of Satanite (a refractory cement). Use a $25 swirl tip torch and a 5 gal can of propane, and you're in business. Beginner anvils have ranged from scrapyard plate steel, RR track, and axle shafts. Harbor Freight sells a cast iron anvil for $50, and is adequate for small stuff if the face gets ground smooth and polished. If you can find scrap steel in large chunks (pneumatic shafts, cutoffs from large pieces, industrial press dies) over 100 pounds, then those will usually do if they have a presentable face. Hammers can be gotten from Home Depot, though a larger selection of blacksmithing hammers are available for sale from such vendors as the Blacksmith's Depot, along with a ton of other tooling. For fine work, a selection of hand tools are a requirement. Files, sandpaper, a vise, and whatever you need to achieve your desired level of finish (plating, blueing, etc) are also something to consider. A good thermocouple for the forge might be a good idea for heat-treated items - knowing just what temperature you're working at is critical for some steels. Then there's the question of what steel to use. Admiral Steel is a fantastic provider for knifemakers, and probably has something in stock suitable to your purposes, too. Some people like to recycle scrap metal (leaf springs, rebar, etc.) but for your hobby, I'd reccomend nothing but new factory steel, so you know just what you're working with.
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Post by Paws on Mar 27, 2006 2:17:59 GMT 12.75
Good to see you back Christopher.
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Post by Christopher on Mar 28, 2006 8:53:36 GMT 12.75
Yeah, but I'm a thread-killer.
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Post by Paws on Mar 28, 2006 10:51:51 GMT 12.75
No you aren't. You are just overly sensitive. ;D
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Post by shiloh on Mar 29, 2006 3:53:58 GMT 12.75
Thanks guys. I mentioned this idea to the wife and she kind of looked at me funny and asked "and just where are you going to put this forge thingy?" Vimen just don't understand the complex nature of guys. ;D Anywho, I was at Bridgeport this past weekend and watched the Cherokee blacksmith there and as luck would have it a US artillery camp near mine had 3-4 guys doing blacksmithing. They had a table-style forge with hand-crank "bellows" and were turning out simple little things remarkably fast, like fire utensiles, and door latches. I was amazed at how fast one guy was pounding out stuff. I can't do anything serious right now due to lack of space. That, plus my neighbors wouldn't appreciate me clanking and banging away over a stinking coal pit all day. I'll keep watching these sites and learning until that joyful day that I get on my land where I can do what I want. By the way, the guys I was watching near my camp are from Soddy-Daisy, TN. I didn't get their names though, but they all wore a lot of Scottish stuff. Know them?
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Post by Paws on Mar 29, 2006 4:17:10 GMT 12.75
I have seen them Shiloh. I believe at Davenport, Iowa several years ago and again in McConnelsville, Ohio. You know pal, life just ain't near long enough to get into all the fun stuff!
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Post by Christopher on Mar 29, 2006 7:00:07 GMT 12.75
The heavier the anvil, the less noise it makes.
Small gas forges don't stink.
Get it hot and hit it, man!
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Post by Two Tales on Mar 30, 2006 2:31:46 GMT 12.75
Glad to have you back Christopher...how's the art work coming along..if I remember correctly you had some pieces that you were working on the last time you were here...I'll bet some of the folks here would love to see some pics of your work...I know I would...
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Post by shiloh on Mar 30, 2006 5:55:28 GMT 12.75
Yeah, life is far too short - lest we get bored. I will start looking around at antique stoees and such for old blacksmith's tools to acquire. I already skulk these haunts for old gun stuff and tools for my Regimental Armore and Artificer demos, so blacksmithing stuff will be a good addition.
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Post by shiloh on Mar 30, 2006 5:58:00 GMT 12.75
As far as noise goes, that makes sense. The more mass one has it will soak up more vibrations and transmith less noise. But, at Bridgeport this past weekend they were "shooting anvils" and let me tell you that them bigger ones made one helluva racket when the powder went off! Ever seen a 120 pounder go straight up end over end for 100 feet? When it hits it completely submerges in the ground! ;D
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Post by Christopher on Mar 30, 2006 8:29:17 GMT 12.75
Well, yer not shooting the dang thing - just tapping out small gun parts. Shouldn't bother the neighbors. I have a couple in the 170-pound range that I use regularly, and nobody around me seems to even notice, or if they do, they never say anything. Unless you're running multiple strikers, or forging for hours on end (not likely) the urban smith has little to fear except HOA's. Don't get me started.
Basic smithing is not hard. Get it hot and hit it. Read Alex Bealer's book "The art of blacksmithing". Extensive tools are not required - just the basic hammer and tongs, and as your work progresses and specializes, you'll learn what you need to make the work easier. A true smith then makes his own tooling, but knowing what's worth buying and what's not only comes through experience. You can waste a lot of money on tools you don't need, and increased skill replaces many little "cheats" as well.
Since it sounds like you're doing small, curvy bits, I would reccomend as a starting set: An anvil, 2 hammers (3# cross pein, and 20oz. ball pein), a set of tongs (which are totally unneccessary if you forge a small bit off the end of a long bar of steel, and cut it when you're about finished), a small gas homemade forge, and a couple of hardy tools that you can likely make yourself. A hardy tool is something that fits in that square hole in the anvil, the "hardy hole", and gives you an other-than-flat surface on which to work. They make sharp wedges for cutting steel, round domes for dishing, fullers, patterns. A 1/2 round piece welded to a shank will suffice better than the horn for hammering tighter radius bits, and you can make whatever you need in order to fit the job you're working on.
I really need to do my Introduction to Metalsmithing video.
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