Post by elkchsr on Dec 14, 2004 15:10:32 GMT 12.75
Fire on it's most fundemental point is some thing that escapes most people.
Not understanding how moisture works in the equation will give one fits on trying to get a fire started even in what seems to be ideal.
I will make this as simple as possible with out any of the frills and extra's that I like to embelish into this topic.
Water can only exist in the open at temps of 200 something. I don't know the exact temps of these, but do know how they work. Then it turns to steam and disapears out of it's held medium. Ignition doesn't happen in most natural vegetation until 300 something.
If there are any water molecules in the material you are trying to start, your ignition temperatures can't be reached. One has to create enough heat to drive any moisture, even in minisule amounts out of the material you are trying to start.
I have had what I thought to be dry grass, or dry needles to start a fire. You put the fire to them, they start to flare up and as soon as the artificial heat is removed, the fire in your tinder immediatly goes out.
That is because there is still some moisture left in my tinder.
If you have material that is smoldering away from a camp fire and is just creeping along, that is because the heat from that which is smoldering have to totally dry out every thing in front of it before it can advance into the next batch of fuel.
One of the things I have the kids think about out on the fires is why with a very little bit of water and hand tools designed to loosen and stir the soil can easily put hot spots out.
Part of the questions that I ask is if they know the fire triangle.
Most get it right.
Heat/Fuel/Oxygen
The Next question is what one of those parts of the triangle is broken?
The answer that is most often stated is you remove the oxygen, in which I answer that can't be possible because you just stirred it full of oxygen.
Then they immediatly state that it must be the fuel in which I state that you can see fuel there still.
Then they say "Heat?"
They know the heat after the actual coals are out is still high enough to take the skin right off your hand, so that in their minds means it is still hot enough.
But if we remember what I stated earlier about what it takes to make water dissapear and what the actual ignition point is, this whole topic makes perfect sense.
I was watching that show survivor a few months or a year or so ago, and they were trying to get a coal started by taking a halved piece of bamboo with a notch on either side of the halved part. They put their tinder in the grove in the middle and had another piece of wood to run in their notches to create a coal with friction.
They were working it and working it, but nothing would start, they could even get smoke, but no coal.
One simple basic thing they didn't understand why their manual fire starting method wouldn't work, even though it should have was because they were using a green piece of bamboo.
The molecules in the green wood wouldn't permit ignition.
It would have been a simple thing if they would have understood the situation, but they worked for hours and finally gave up on that method.
I hope this little bit of info helps some one in the future.
It is some thing I have had to beat my head against trees to figure out and in one of my fire classes, the science of the whole deal made itself obvious when it was mentiond.
If you can understand fire on this level, you will have very little problems, as long as you keep patience to get a fire going in almost any situation you could possibly find yourself in.
Next with the aid of others that want to kick in their two scents, I will start to build the basics from this point on different styles and types of things for getting your fire started.
I prefer myself not to use any man made materials in the beginning stages of getting a fire started.
It is just a very good thing to practice.
It is easier to practice this when it is not necessary then when you might actually need to know this stuff in a pinch.
Not understanding how moisture works in the equation will give one fits on trying to get a fire started even in what seems to be ideal.
I will make this as simple as possible with out any of the frills and extra's that I like to embelish into this topic.
Water can only exist in the open at temps of 200 something. I don't know the exact temps of these, but do know how they work. Then it turns to steam and disapears out of it's held medium. Ignition doesn't happen in most natural vegetation until 300 something.
If there are any water molecules in the material you are trying to start, your ignition temperatures can't be reached. One has to create enough heat to drive any moisture, even in minisule amounts out of the material you are trying to start.
I have had what I thought to be dry grass, or dry needles to start a fire. You put the fire to them, they start to flare up and as soon as the artificial heat is removed, the fire in your tinder immediatly goes out.
That is because there is still some moisture left in my tinder.
If you have material that is smoldering away from a camp fire and is just creeping along, that is because the heat from that which is smoldering have to totally dry out every thing in front of it before it can advance into the next batch of fuel.
One of the things I have the kids think about out on the fires is why with a very little bit of water and hand tools designed to loosen and stir the soil can easily put hot spots out.
Part of the questions that I ask is if they know the fire triangle.
Most get it right.
Heat/Fuel/Oxygen
The Next question is what one of those parts of the triangle is broken?
The answer that is most often stated is you remove the oxygen, in which I answer that can't be possible because you just stirred it full of oxygen.
Then they immediatly state that it must be the fuel in which I state that you can see fuel there still.
Then they say "Heat?"
They know the heat after the actual coals are out is still high enough to take the skin right off your hand, so that in their minds means it is still hot enough.
But if we remember what I stated earlier about what it takes to make water dissapear and what the actual ignition point is, this whole topic makes perfect sense.
I was watching that show survivor a few months or a year or so ago, and they were trying to get a coal started by taking a halved piece of bamboo with a notch on either side of the halved part. They put their tinder in the grove in the middle and had another piece of wood to run in their notches to create a coal with friction.
They were working it and working it, but nothing would start, they could even get smoke, but no coal.
One simple basic thing they didn't understand why their manual fire starting method wouldn't work, even though it should have was because they were using a green piece of bamboo.
The molecules in the green wood wouldn't permit ignition.
It would have been a simple thing if they would have understood the situation, but they worked for hours and finally gave up on that method.
I hope this little bit of info helps some one in the future.
It is some thing I have had to beat my head against trees to figure out and in one of my fire classes, the science of the whole deal made itself obvious when it was mentiond.
If you can understand fire on this level, you will have very little problems, as long as you keep patience to get a fire going in almost any situation you could possibly find yourself in.
Next with the aid of others that want to kick in their two scents, I will start to build the basics from this point on different styles and types of things for getting your fire started.
I prefer myself not to use any man made materials in the beginning stages of getting a fire started.
It is just a very good thing to practice.
It is easier to practice this when it is not necessary then when you might actually need to know this stuff in a pinch.