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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 7, 2007 9:08:33 GMT 12.75
Pastor I'm not sure where your conviction that miracles are over comes from because if they are then there probably isn't any cause for a whole lot of prayer. Will you please elaborate. You see, I have seen miracles which I can site unless they are dilusions or manisfestations of false light then I must contradict your assertion. You know as I reflected while reading this sermon there were two things that came to mind. First of all not a whole lot has improved in the midle east when compared to Paul's day and age. Still pretty primitive there. Secondly, remember the Korean kid who shot up the college? Well, while I was listening to his video taped verbage I suddenly wondered; "What if God is sending a message through this kid and his act?" His words could rightfully accuse if taken to heart and lessons could be learned. Great sermon! In I Corinthians 13 we read about miracles. Paul begins by speaking about charity (love) and it's attributes in verse s 4-8. Then Paul goes on to say in verse 9 that we know in part, and we prophesy in part. In other words, the prophecying that was going on at that time was not perfect. It was given to the church by the Holy Spirit so that the church would be shown to be approved of God. But verse 10 is the one I want to get to. "But when that which is perfect is come (the Bible) then that which is in part shall be done away with. (miracles)" in verse 11 Paul goes on to say that when he was a child he spoke like a child, but when he was a man, he put away childish things. So, we see Paul likening miracles to childish things. We have all we need to know in the scriptures. Look what Paul says in verse 13. And now abideth (remains) faith, hope, and charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity (love). Let me ask you a question. When was the last time you saw someone healed with out being asked for money?? Almost all of these frauds ask for money. If a person has the healing power, why don't they go to a hospital and heal those that are there?? Now remember, a miracle is something that is spontanious and extraordinary. Jesus healed while walking. It was instantionus and spontanus. He sent those he healed to the doctors and priests to prove that they were healed. Do they do that today? Now God does do some extraordinary things, but not like it was in those days. There is still a need for prayer even though the age of miracles is past. in fact, prayer is more needful now than ever! Example. If your father was still alive (now I don't know but I'm guessing here) would he have loved for you to call and just visit with him? We take after the Heavenly Father, and He wants His children to just talk to Him, tell Him how much they love Him, praise His name, etc.
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Post by Paws on May 7, 2007 23:53:22 GMT 12.75
The most recent miracles I witnessed were yesterday when I immediately and without thinking prepared a reply and struck the button. The puter blew up. Did it twice! I;'m sorry you haven't got to witness any miracles Pastor and I thank God for the privelege of having seen and been a part in several. I'll talk about a few here as documentation not bragging. When I was a child following two surgeries at less than six years of age to correct crosseye which failed God saw fit to straighten one in church at the alter. The right eye still wanders but sometimes it too comes into focus. When I was cured of addiction to tobacco in 1986, when I was granted the gift of speaking in tongues and later given the written translation and discovering that the unknown words were Aramaic for "All glory to God our one and only God", when my arthritis of more than twelve years in my right elbow was suddenly given to surrender after a slight touch (the constant ache has not returned now in more than three years), when falling onto the provision of a house and means to pay for my expenses when all possible hope was at an end,. Ever try to pay all your bills and feed yourself on fifty dollars a week? It happened for over a year and I still thank God I could pay my five dollars a week in tiths. But the most extraordinary miracles are the ver smallest ones that have had the greatest impact in my life. The first; One afternoon after having been to church and stopping by the Pantry for goodies I was given an overpowering urge to go to the phone booth outside the store. My thoughts were for my estranged family and I believed I was being led to call them. I knew I should not yet the draw was irresistable. I should also explain that I at this point was questioning my faith, salvation and even considering suicide over the contemporary predicamint I was in. I went to the phone and lifted the receiver and as I began to punch the buttons I noticed a pamphlet laying on the shelf there. I opened it and it was a tract. It was an invitation to the church I had just attended and it contained a passage. I do not remember the entire context but I remember this "I have seen a violent wicked man, I searched for him, he is no more!." I do not remember what passage it came from but I had to walk home and pick the car up later cause I could not see to drive for the tears causing the blurred vision. Miracles of small miracles I can tell you that if not for that tract that had been placed there by one of our brothers or sisters I would most likely not be here now to tell you about this event. I was at the end of my rope and my plan of the moment was to not only end myself but also what I believed to be the root of my grief. So you see Pastor that small miracle kept me from my "fifteen minutes of fame" that day by letting me know in no uncertain terms that God had indeed given me a clean slate. Pastor some do go to the hospitals and heal the sick. Nursing homes, too and sometimes just hanging around the house or at the alter. Not everyone demands a pay check for their prayers, laying on hands, etc. With all of the death, disease and affliction I have seen in my life I have also seen my share of cures, some instant, many confirmed by follow-up X rays and so forth. Everyone who asks for healing is not healed and only God knows why but don't you think that if God wants to heal someone that He is going to do it? I don't think He is going to be limited by a calendar or roped in by an age or era. I don't think that He is going to perform miracles or allow them to be performed "for show" either. That's man's mentality, not God's. In any case it isn't important because God will or won't do as He pleases and desires regardless of what we do or do not believe on this issue. There is more neat stuff on miracles and the gifts of the Holy Spirit in Acts and 2nd Corn too.
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Post by Toby Benoit on May 8, 2007 6:46:40 GMT 12.75
I witnessed a miracle just last night and it was just confirmed by Paws that there's NO WAY it was coincedence!
I was sitting at the computer yesterday when I read yesterdays sermon and was troubled by the line that there are no more miracles.
I began typing away conceding that maybe we just have different definitions of miracle because I have witnessed first hand a bona fide laying on the hands healing and have witnessed other miracles first hand that ONLY God could have been a part of.
Like Paws, my reply wasn't quite so thought out and before I hit the send button...the electricity went out and I lost it all. I went to my parents to see if there lights were out or not and I jokingly told them that I was just about to argue with the Preacher when the lights went out. My Mom suggested that it was a sign that maybe I was wrong and we laughed. I told her that if it was a sign, then it could only strengthen my case.
Later when the lights came on, we all had dinner and I left. I turned on the computer and came back to OCC to set you straight about miracles and...the lights went out again and stayed out until two AM. I called my Mom and told her and she freaked out on me and told me to apologize and I said no way, I've seen miracles, I can't apologize for it.
I have too! I haven't seen dead men rise and walk, but I have seen them, or at least what I believe are miracles. She told me that twice in a row was more than coincidence. At two O'clock in the morning, I took my Mom's advice and out loud said that I was indeed sorry. I swear to you brothers that the lights came back on in seconds afterwards!
I called my Mom and she couldn't believe it!
This afternoon I finally get a chance to come in here to tell you about the wierd happenings and see Paw's post. Brother that ain't no coincidence!
I ain't about to argue with you Brother Freddie because I understand that you aren't wrong, but that I don't understand something so I'll go back and read and re-read until I get it, then I'm going to pray even harder than before. If the age of miracles is past, so be it, but what can you call this? It sure isn't a coincidence!
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Post by Paws on May 8, 2007 9:21:24 GMT 12.75
;D Wow!! ;D Pastor Freddie you have sure earned your promisorry note this week! Pastor Freddie and Toby!!
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 8, 2007 13:59:47 GMT 12.75
I just got in and read the most recent replies to this weeks topic. I don't have the time to reply to them like I would like, so let me just say that I will pray and think about your responses and will post when I have the time, probaly tomorrow.
Bro. Freddie
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Post by Paws on May 9, 2007 1:43:14 GMT 12.75
Take your time.
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Post by Toby Benoit on May 9, 2007 5:29:55 GMT 12.75
19. Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Preacher, didn't you see signs and wonders which opened you up to the calling of our Lord to preach His gospel? Or, are you preaching just because you needed a hobby? I read in an earlier discussion a long time ago that you were led to your ministry by God. Isn't that miraculous or am I still not understanding the meaning of the word miracle?
Take your time Preacher Freddie. I'm not arguing, I just want to understand because if I'm wrong, I gotta start over with my whole understanding of how God touches my life everyday.
Thanks for your time and patience. Is there anything I can do to show you how much I appreciate it?
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Post by Paws on May 9, 2007 6:59:02 GMT 12.75
Don't worry Pastor cause 'll argue with you even if you are right!
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Post by Toby Benoit on May 9, 2007 11:06:23 GMT 12.75
Doggonit Paws, knock it off or our computers'll blow up again!
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 9, 2007 11:51:19 GMT 12.75
Ok I think I see the problem. Ya'll are getting miracles and God's grace, benovelance, and blessings mixed up. Since I don't have time to post my entire thoughts tonight, I will just give you a defination and something to think about. Miracle-wonderful events; and yet to be distinguised from events that seem to be, or merely are wonderful. In general terms miracle may be defined as supernatural manifestations of divine power in the external world, in themselves special revelations of the presence and power of God. So, we see that miracles are special and are different from other blessings from God. So what is the differance between blessings and miracles? Wow, i junt noticed! I have joined the 1,000 post club! ;D
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Post by Toby Benoit on May 9, 2007 16:53:58 GMT 12.75
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 13, 2007 2:28:10 GMT 12.75
OK, I finally have a little time to try and clear up the confusion about miracles. I'm sorry it has took so long, but it has been a crazy week around here.
A miracle by definition is something that is a special wonderful event. It is different from a blessing, which while wonderful may not be special. An example is rain. In the summer, when we are blessed with rain, does it just rain on the just? Or does it rain on both the just and the unjust? Rain is a blessing. A miracle is something that while wonderful is also unique. Take the raising of the dead for example. Since the last of the apostles died, no one has been able to raise another from the dead. The apostles had this unique gift given unto them by the Lord, and no one else had it or have had it since.
Are there miracles today? No, not in the sense of what the apostles could do. Sure, we call certain things miracles, but are they really? What people call miracles are usually just blessing from the Father. Sure, people may have been healed, but not through the power given unto a man, but through the blessings of God. I have seen what some call miracles, like being healed from a disease, but are these really miracles? Or are they just the answer to prayer?
Alot of times we equate miracles with the spiritual gifts mentioned in the scriptures. I also believe the time of spiritual gifts is past. I'm talking about speaking in tongues, prophesy, and others. The scriptures teach that when that which is perfect is come (the Bible) that which was imperfect would be done away with (gifts). We have to remember that these gifts were given to the early church to show the world that the church was of God. Now, some may believe that these gifts are still in effect. But I don't believe so. Take the gift of speaking in tongues. This was a gift so that the Gospel could be heard in a language that someone could understand. There had to be 3 elements for this to be in effect. (1) Someone had to speak a language they had no prior knowledge of. (2) Someone had to be there that had never heard the Gospel. (3) Someone had to be there to be able to interpret what the one speaking in tongues said t make sure it was the truth. So, while some may think they have spoken in tongues, have all requirements been fulfilled? if not, then it is quite possible it is not from the Father but from Satan. Remember, Satan is the great deceiver and enjoys nothing better than to deceive those who are children of God.
Another example is of the power of healing. When Jesus healed, that person was told to go and present themselves to the priests and doctors to prove that they were healed. Does the ones that "heal" today do that? And why do they charge money for a "healing"? Jesus never did! We have no record of Jesus (or the apostles) healing those that did not have physical ailments that could not be seen, meaning lame, blind, etc. All those I have seen "healed" by these so-called healers are of things that can not be seen.
We have to keep in mind that Satan is the prince of this world and that he will do everything he can to pervert the word of God and to deceive the very children of God. Satan uses these things to confuse a lot of people and to lead a lot astray. Please be careful and examine these things and make sure you are not believing a lie.
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Post by Paws on May 13, 2007 3:47:26 GMT 12.75
Bull, I ain't buying it. Where in the scriptures does it tell us that gifts are imperfect? How do we know that nobody has been raised from the dead? I figure if I raised somebody from the dead I'd keep it to myself. I know for a fact that the gift of speaking in tongues still exists having witnessed it numerous times and experiencing it personally under "double blind" circumstances; which means proven positively. Miracles are indeed extraordinary events, some more extraordinary than others. If you consider the parting of the Red Sea a miracle then since the event has been archeologically proven to have occurred and with no less than three plausible natural causal events is it any less a miracle? I don't think so; still a miracle in my book yet none of the Apostles required a special gift to cause it to happen, just asked is all and God did it. All miracles are performed by God, not man and God is alive. I think probably the confusion is established with the terms "perfect" and "imperfect" and the inclusions of scripture therein. When you get to Bible College it might be a good idea to look at the original language and English translations derived. I don't know what the original words were but I'm betting they have been misinterpreted somewhere along the line to something "close" but off track. Cause like the word "Rapture" I just do not see any literal support for the use of the terms. That's why you hear folk; "Rapture isn't in the Bible!" Right it isn't, just some verbage about being caught up in the air with Jesus. See what I'm saying?
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Post by Toby Benoit on May 13, 2007 5:22:18 GMT 12.75
Bull, I ain't buying it either. Sorry Freddie, but I HAVE witnessed a sure enough, honest to God, healing. It wasn't a hidden affliction either. I think I told the story before, but my sister sliced her tongue wide open when she was young. We were at my Gr. Grand mother's home and she was near death and a preacher had been called in to pray with our family.
When my sister's accident happened, my Mom was the first to reach her and she had blood all over the place and was screaming/crying. The preacher's name was Tom Shaffner and he took my sister from Mom and placed his bible against her head and prayed.
Freddie, if I'm making this up, I hope to die. My sister stopped crying and sobbing. She stopped bleeding. Her wound healed in record time, and caused her no further pain or discomfort. I was young, but I remember and I've spoken of it with my family and my parents and grandparents all remember it exactly as I've told you. They all witnessed that childs healing through prayer with that preacher. That was a miracle according to your own definition.
I didn't see in the scriptures you referenced that there were to be no more miracles. It just isn't there.
I can testify to others as well. I've been truly blessed to have been witness to His work and nobody is going to shake my belief in the power of His love. If you really believe that there are no such things as miracles..... I'm going to pray hard for you Freddie. I'm going to pray to God to show you a miracle so that you will see His love at work first hand.
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Post by g8rhed on May 13, 2007 5:23:53 GMT 12.75
I can follow what Pastor is saying - we were always taught that a miracle was something that defied natural laws. Edward Koehler, in his book "A Summary of Christian Doctrine" puts it this way:
"Since God is the author of the laws of nature, He controls them, and they do not control Him. In the case of a miracle He simply suspends the natural limitations and function of a creature, and makes it serve His own purpose."
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Post by Toby Benoit on May 13, 2007 5:33:53 GMT 12.75
You'e right G8rhead. Mr Koehler in his book describes perfectly what occurred with my sister. Naturally the pain wouldn't have dissappeared, she wouldn't have stopped crying, the blood wouldn't have stopped so quickly, and the wound wouldn't have healed in two days without a few stitches in it. Also, it would have hurt for awhile afterwards, naturally. What occurred in that living room on that day was unnatural. It was a bona fide miracle even by the definition of such an educated bible scholar as Mr. Koehler. Jon!
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 13, 2007 23:29:24 GMT 12.75
Romans 15:20-24 (King James Version)
20. Yea, so i have strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation. 21. But as it is written, To whom He was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand. 22. For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you. 23. But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you; 24. Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled by your company.
We have been looking the last few weeks at Paul's farewell address to the church at Rome. We have learned that Paul wrote boldly to the Romans so that he could remind them, and teach them of the things they should know to have an effective Christan life. We have also learned that Paul did not glory in anything other than Jesus. No matter what he went through in his ministry, Paul always gave Jesus the glory. Keep these thoughts in mind, so that we will stay in context of the scriptures, as we look at our passage for today.
In verse 20 we see that Paul strived to preach the gospel. In other words, Paul did all he could do to promote Jesus to everyone he met. I am not trying to toot my own horn here, but preaching is a hard work. There is nothing easy about it. It has been said that preparing a sermon takes at least 8 hours of study ( I have never timed mine) and that preaching that sermon is like working a 8 hour shift at work. It is very stressful. But Paul preached to everyone he met. Shouldn't we do the same? Jesus done so much for us, it is the least we can do to tell others about Him. Folks, we should tell everyone we come into contact with about Jesus. You don't have to preach a sermon. Just tell them about the love that Jesus has for them and what He has done in your life. Looking further in verse 20 we see that Paul preached where Christ was not named, lest he build on another's foundation. Folks, Paul went to those who had never heard the gospel of Christ. He carried the message to those that needed it the most, the ones who were lost. Paul didn't want to preach to those who had heard the gospel before, he wanted to preach to those who were lost and headed to hell. Shouldn't we do the same? But how are we to know who has heard the gospel? We can't know for sure, so we should tell everyone about the Lord. You might think that the person you work with, or meet daily has heard about the Lord, but what if they haven't? All of creation cries that there is a Creator, and no one has any excuse, but why take the chance that someone you know has never heard the Gospel? Brethren preach the Gospel, with your life and with your words, to everyone you meet.
As we look now at verse 21 we see Paul quoting from the Old Testament again. This time it is from Isaiah 52:15. This passage seems a little complicated but think on it a moment. To whom they have not heard they shall see. Isn't that the way it was when you head the Gospel? You had not heard, but then all of a sudden your eyes were opened and you saw or understood? I know it was with me.I had been raised all my life in church, and one morning, all of a sudden it was like if the light went on. I understood that I was lost and headed to hell. It finally hit me! Folks, that is the way it is with others. They may have heard all their life, but it has never sunk in that they need a Saviour. We need to tell everyone about the Lord. Never take for granted that a person is saved just because they live a good life or attend church regularly. Ask that person, and find out for sure where they will be spending eternity.
Looking now at verse 22 we see that Paul was hindered by a cause from going to the church at Rome. What cause was this? It was the cause of preaching the gospel to every living creature. Even though Paul desired to go to the church at Rome and minister unto them, he couldn't because of what needed to be done where he was, and that was that the gospel needed to be preached. Folks, Paul put the Lord above what he desired to do. He wanted to go to Rome, but he knew that the time wasn't right. Paul trusted in the Lord to tell him when it was time to go to Rome. And while he was waiting, he didn't sit around and do nothing. He preached the gospel. There are 3 things I want us to learn from this verse alone. (1) The Lord comes before our desires. (2) Wait on the Lord for the right time. Too many times we get ahead of the Lord and the time is not right. (3) While we are waiting, stay busy. It may be that the Lord wants you to stay right where you are. If so, great. But while there, tell others about Him. It may be that the Lord is going to move you. If so, wonderful. Tell others about Him while waiting to move. What ever it is, tell others about Him.
In verse 23 and 24 we see that the time is right for Paul to move on. Paul had a great desire for many years to go unto the church at Rome, but he waited for the Lord to move him. Now, the time is right and the Lord is moving him. We also see that Paul was planning a missionary journey to Spain, and that while he was on that journey, he would go to Rome to see them there. In fact, if you look further in verse 24 you will see where Paul was hoping that the church at Rome would help support him while he was in Spain. Was Paul asking for money from the church at Rome? No, he was simply asking for their support, be it with money, or prayers, or whatever. Paul done things the right way. When a missionary goes out, he is to be sent by the church, not just go on his own. Paul wanted the Romans to send him out so that he could go to Spain and preach the Gospel. So what can we learn from this? there are two things. First, do things the right way. The way it has been laid out in the Word. Second, support the missionary's. The missionary life is a hard one. They go on a field, maybe knowing no one, away from family and friends, and try to establish a church the way the Lord wanted it to be done. They knock on doors, preach the Word, and other things so that the gospel will be spread. Folks, these men need our support, whether it be with money, or just with our prayers, they need our support. How often do you pray for the missionary's? How often do you support them with money the Lord has blessed you with? How often do you tell them that you love them and appreciate them?
In conclusion, we have learned today that we should preach the gospel to every living creature, no matter where. And that while we may be living at home, we should support those that have been called to spread the gospel to those who have not heard it, namely missionary's. Are we doing these two things? Do we tell everyone that we meet about what the Lord has done for us? Or do we think, well, I hope they are saved. Why take that chance? Do we support the missionary's with our prayers? How about with the money the Lord has blessed you with? What about telling them that you love them and appreciate them? Sometimes being told that you are appreciated means more than all the money in the world. In short, what are you doing for the Lord today?
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Post by Paws on May 14, 2007 1:13:20 GMT 12.75
Pastor in that first verse where Paul says he didn't want to build on another's foundation, I'm wondering did he mean because it might change the outcome or structure of the church or was it because he felt that erector of the foundation; ergo Jesus, would lose credit and association for building it in the first place? You know that preparation of a lesson does indeed take eight hours or more for every hour of presentation. Whenever I designed a new course of instruction I always paid close attention, sometimes because the client was being billed for hours expended, to know how many manhours were being invested in course development, maintenance, reviews, and presentation. The numbers rarely varied from the expected norms. You have my respect and admiration sir for your efforts and hard work. I know what it takes cause I have been there. Your work here is genuinely appreciated. Now something I would like to share that undoubtyedly was planned a long time ago because it just fits as hand in glove with your request to share the knowledge of Jesus. I think you will like this: A holy man was having a conversation with the Lord one day and said, Lord, I would like to know what Heaven and Hell are like." The Lord led the holy man to two doors. He opened one of the doors and the holy man looked in. In the middle of the room was a large round table. In the middle of the table was a large pot of stew which smelled delicious and made the holy man's mouth water. The people sitting around the table were thin and sickly. They appeared to be famished. They were holding spoons with very long handles that were strapped to their arms and each found it possible to reach into the pot of stew and take a spoonful, but because the handle was longer than their arms, they could not get the spoons back into their mouths. The holy man shuddered at the sight of their misery and suffering. The Lord said, "You have seen Hell." They went to the next room and opened the door. It was exactly the same as the first one. There was the large round table with the large pot of stew which made the holy man's mouth water. The people were equipped with the same long-handled spoons, but here the people were well nourished and plump, laughing and talking. The holy man said, "I don't understand." It is simple" said the Lord, "it requires but one skill. You see, they have learned to feed each other, while the greedy think only of themselves." When Jesus died on the cross he was thinking of you! HAVE A BLESSED DAY AND PASS IT ON!!!!!
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 14, 2007 2:32:09 GMT 12.75
I believe there were 2 main reasons Paul didn't want to build on anothers foundation. (1) Paul didn't want to recieve the aclaim when the church grew. If another (say Apollos for example) began a work, then Paul came in, and the church grew, Paul didn't want to take another's credit for it. In other words, Paul wanted to stay humble. (2). Paul was a missionary at heart. He wanted to establish new churches, not build on one already established. He desired for the gospel to be spread to everyone.
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gooch
Water Fetcher
Yup this is me
Posts: 4
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Post by gooch on May 14, 2007 3:29:03 GMT 12.75
This is an observation from an outsider Bro. Freddie so feel free to tell me where I am wrong.
I have noticed that when people gather willingly to share their beliefs that it is a joyess and loving experience. When someone in poor spiritual health comes seeking guidance than sharing can be live changing for that person. When someone shares his spiritual or religious beliefs unsolicited however it seems to do nothing but breed hate and discontent.
I doubt you will find very many people in America that have not “heard the Word” so to speak. So when you share with someone they already have a belief of there own. When you share with someone who has already rejected God then it serves to do nothing but anger them and harden their position. When you share with those who views themselves as Christian but don’t really practice or even think much about it, they tend to feel looked down on and feel that you are judging them. They too react with anger. But a third group, Those that consider themselves to be “true Christians” The ones that devote themselves to the faith, tend to react the worst. They become very angry that someone might presume to preach to them about what they already consider themselves to be the authority on.
So does this unsolicited sharing with people who are not searching for spiritual guidance bring more people to Jesus or chase more of them away?
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