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Post by Paws on May 12, 2006 11:37:42 GMT 12.75
Mars, Christians are not sinless. They/we are sinners too. Yet I do not plan on seeing hell. I think that probably even distinguising Christian from sinner is judgement.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 12, 2006 13:24:08 GMT 12.75
Mars said
Mars, I beg to differ. In Matthew 7:1 we find Judge not, that ye be not judged. That is a direct quote from Jesus. But this is all part of the sermon on the mount. Inn this sermon we also find the beatitudes and the model prayer among other things. This sermon starts in chapter 5:1 and goes all the way through chapter 7:27. In chapter 7:28 it says that the people were astonished at his doctrine. In chapter 5:1 it mentions the multitude. So it stands to reason that Jesus was teaching a great crowd, not just the saved. I think the verse you are thinking of is in I Corinthians 11:31. Paul states For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. Paul was writing to the church at Corinth. We are to judge others in the Church so that they, and ourselves, will be found blameless. In other words, if I see a brother or sister doing something that would bring shame upon the church, or upon Christ, I am to call their attention to it so that they will correct it in the proper manner. I am to do this in love, not in malice.
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Post by Paws on May 13, 2006 3:28:03 GMT 12.75
At the Sermon on the Mount, there were "no" Christians! Nobody there other than Jesus was capable of obeying the law and it had not yet been fulfilled through His crucifixion.
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Post by Toby Benoit on May 13, 2006 5:01:23 GMT 12.75
Very good point Paws!
Mars is right that you shouldn't judgem yet there are some that you shouldn't spend your time with either. In order to know who not to spend your time with, you have to judge them.
Jesus alsotold us, "Cast not ye pearls before swine."
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 13, 2006 6:34:09 GMT 12.75
Paws said
Paws.
As a Missionary Baptist I have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. We Baptist believe that the Church (hence Christians) started on the shores of the Sea of Galilee. When Jesus called Peter, James, and John and told them to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men was when I believe the first church was started. When these men followed Jesus, they believed and therefore became the "first" Christians. Remember, the word "Christians" means little Christ or a picture of the real Christ. But, the word Christians wasn't used until after Jesus' death and resurrection. I can't recall where exactly, but I think it was somewhere in the book of Acts.
I agree 100% about the fact that Jesus was the only one who could keep the Law and thus fulfill it but the church was started before His crufixion.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 14, 2006 23:03:03 GMT 12.75
Romans 8:5-11 (King James Version)
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit, 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace, 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his, 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness, 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
As we begin to look at these verses the first thing we should notice is that those who seek after the things of the flesh will always have those things on their mind. If we constantly seek after things that will fulfill our fleshy desires, we will have those things on our mind more than the things of God. And just the opposite is true of the things of the Spirit. If we always seek after the things of God, we will concentrate on those things instead of the things of this world. Notice what Paul says in verse 6. Remember, Paul is writing to the saved. So, what he is saying is to remember how you were before you were saved, how you always thought on things that were not of God. Those things only bring death. But after you were saved, didn't you start thinking on the things of God? Didn't you find a peace within your soul? This is another way to be sure of your salvation. If you don't have a peace within your soul you should check to see if you have really been saved. I know after I was saved, I found a peace that I can't explain. The same thing happened after I surrendered to the ministry. I was not a peace with myself. I was under conviction and I tried everything I could think of before I finally surrendered. I tried alcohol, some minor drugs, kinky sex, everything. But it did not bring peace into my life. What brought peace in my life was finally submitting to the will of God. When I did that, I finally knew a peace in my life that I can not explain. Do you have this peace in your life today? In verse 11, the word "quicken" is very interesting. It means to make alive. What Paul is saying is that if the Spirit of God dwells in you, then that same Spirit will make alive our mortal bodies. I believe this means that the same Spirit that dwells in us through Jesus Christ, gives us great joy in our mortal bodies. So, I have a great joy, and a great peace, in my soul and in my body. Do you have this peace and joy I'm talking about? If not, I urge you to humbly give your life to Jesus, who gave His life for you, and receive this joy and peace that I have.
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Post by Paws on May 15, 2006 9:51:56 GMT 12.75
Thanks Freddie. I'm beginning to see an awful lot of explanation here into "attitude." I mean, can you see why two folk can look at the same glass and one see it half empty and the other half full?
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 15, 2006 10:06:54 GMT 12.75
Paws,
Yep. I like to think of that glass as half-full. If I look at the things God has blessed me with, I can not look on the negative side of things. We have been blessed beyond measure. There is so much in my life that I have to shout HALLELUJAH!
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Post by Paws on May 15, 2006 10:07:07 GMT 12.75
What you have written here comes so much closer to my experience than any combination of words I have ever been able to use to explain! Peace, confidence, unshakeable certainty, bravado, inexplicable courage, ... something brand new.
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Post by Toby Benoit on May 15, 2006 16:59:55 GMT 12.75
Ya'll just keep hittin' the nail on the head!
I see so much in these verses. There's way too much significance put on material items and status and such.
It brings to mind stories I've often heard of "rich old men dying alone and miserable". It's a common theme in story and song and I've always questioned how anyone could pretend to love power and money so much that they could not enjoy the love of themselves wrapped in the love of Jesus.
I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly or not. It's been a long day and my fingers are as tired as my mind, but these verses speak volumes.
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Post by Mars on May 16, 2006 4:31:36 GMT 12.75
To back track a little.
Mathew 7;
1. Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Many people take only the first verse and use it to mean we are not to judge each other which it does not state. It's more of a "warning" that if you do judge then you will be held to your own standards.
3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brothers eye, but considerest not the beam in thine own eye?
4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold a beam is in thine own eye?
5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Brother means brother in Christ and not the unsaved.
It's also an admonishment to get yourself right with God before you start pointing fingers at fellow Christians and their faults.
6. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Now if verse 6 is not judgement being laid on certain persons being "dogs" and "swine" then what is?
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 16, 2006 9:57:29 GMT 12.75
Mars.
According to my books on the Greek language, brother can mean any number of things. In this instance, it means any man or neighbor. Now, I agree that this could be said just to the saved, but I believe it has to do with everyone. But, in this instance, Jesus is speaking to a multitude, and I believe He is just making a general reference to mankind in particular. An example would be if I was preaching a sermon, and I used the word "you". I could mean everyone in general or I could mean a specific person. In this case, since Jesus is addressing a large group of people, I believe it is in the generic meaning.
I agree 100%. We need to judge ourselves before we try to judge someone else. But, at the same time, we are to look at a brother in Christ and if he is doing something that hurts the cause of Christ, we are to call his attention to it. Not in admonishment, but in love. Why? Because we should do everything we can to not hurt the cause of Christ. We should warn this brother in Christ, just like Jesus would.
I don't think this is a judgement. Let me try and explain. The word "holy" means something set aside for God's use. Would you give anything that is set aside for God's use to the dogs? Remember, a dog in the middle Eastern culture is real low in the sheme of things. In one of the books of the Old Testament, it uses dogs as a reference to male prostitues. So, would you give something that is for God's use only to a dog? The same thing can be said for "the pearls before swine". Would you give something that is very valuable to a pig, which is worse than a dog to their minds, and allow that pig to trample it in the mud? I believe what Jesus is refering to is the sermon He is preaching here. His words are Holy and pearls (very valuable). Are you going to cast them before dogs and swine?
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Post by Toby Benoit on May 16, 2006 17:09:25 GMT 12.75
But...could you know a man to be a dog without judging him?
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Post by Mars on May 17, 2006 1:03:48 GMT 12.75
As you correctly pointed out Jesus was talking to humans and not animals so He was calling certain humans swine and dogs therefore judging them. Taking the first verse out of the passage gives a false sense that we are not to judge anybody for any reason but the rest of the passage does not confirm that but actualy is opposing that idea. We are to judge but only after conditions are met.
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Post by Toby Benoit on May 17, 2006 5:38:51 GMT 12.75
I think verse two is an accurate qualifier to verse one.
Seems to me that you shouldn't pass judgement prematurely. Such as seeing an old man holding a whiskey bottle. It would be easy to judge him and think to yourself, "He's a drunk." However, you don't know that. He may well have found that bottle by the roadside and decided to take it to a trash can.
By judging him without all of the facts, then we are sinning. However if we get to know the man and find that he is a drunkard, well then, that's not judging really. That would be calling a spade a spade.
Therefore spending your time with "dogs" or "pigs" has to do with people that have proven themselves to be such, not people that you assume are such.
Am I on the right track Freddie?
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 17, 2006 9:32:51 GMT 12.75
I think you are close. You have the essence of what Jesus was saying, but you are just a hair off, the way I see it. I'm not trying to be contentious, but I don't think Jesus was calling people "swine" or "dogs". I believe Jesus was using an analogy here. Jesus wasn't one to beat around the bush. He called a hypocrite a hypocrite. Let me try to explain. Remember, "holy" is defined as something that is set aside for God's use. To the Jewish mind, a pig is very unholy. But, what was Jesus referring to as holy? I believe He was referring to the teachings He was giving to the people during this sermon. But, He used the pig and dog reference as a farming analogy. Would you give something that is set aside for God's use to an animal that God said not to even touch? What are you doing with these teaching? Are you following these teachings, or are you just throwing them out to the pigs with the rest of the slop? I believe that was what Jesus was teaching here.
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Post by Mars on May 18, 2006 1:06:22 GMT 12.75
Exactly, putting holy things in front of certain people is the same as putting pearls in front of swine.IE, some people are swine or like them, a judgment.
What I get from the Bible is total simplicity. Some preachers( not referring to you wildhog,in anyway) make it to seem the Bible is complicated and full of hidden meanings that only the learned can decipher. I think thats what confuses many people with "thats your interpretation of the Bible" when in fact the Bible needs no interpretation at all. It was meant to be understood by the average person and it says exactly what it says without "hidden" meanings.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 18, 2006 6:09:02 GMT 12.75
I agree Mars. The only thing that people need to keep in mind is that the meanings of words change over time. Example...Gay in the 1800's meant happy, now..well you know. But thats why i have a few books to help me understand the original language. Do you know that Kone Greek ( what the New Testament was written in) is no longer spoken? So, I need help with the meanings of words. Take "brother" for example. Sometimes it means a specific male relative, sometimes is generic and sometimes it refers to a saved person. Thats where my books come in handy. I can find out exactly what each word means in its context. I have a good concordance, a Bible dictionary, a Greek and Hebrew lexicon and a few more. I can recommend any of these books for the serious Bible scholar. But I do agree that people try to make the Bible harder than it was meant to be.
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Post by Mars on May 18, 2006 11:38:22 GMT 12.75
Oh brother! My wife was out and about the apartment complex and just came back with a story about being "judged". Seems a nieghbor woman told my wife that the reason she was in a wheelchair is because of her lack of faith and that if she "truly believed" she could just get out of the wheelchair and walk. This woman seems to think that because my wife is handicapped that somehow she is of "lesser" faith then she is. It had nothing to do with being hit by a car going 70+ MPH or the coma of over a year or the brain damage but only in my wife's lack of faith. I wonder why, like us, people quit going to church.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on May 18, 2006 12:12:35 GMT 12.75
Mars,
I didn't know about your wife's handicap. I'm sorry to hear about it. The person that told your wife may be of a religion that believes in faith-healing and doesn't believe in doctors. Although I have never encountered any of these people I have heard of them. To me, that person may believe in healing, but lacks the greatest gift of all. And that gift is charity or love. If they looked upon your wife with love instead of judgment, their response would have been totally different. But please, don't judge everyone who goes to church like that person. If you do, you too will be guilty of judgment, and wrong. Maybe not wrong in judging, but wrong in thinking that all are like that person. Maybe ya'll need to look for a church that is loving and caring, and of course, scriptural. Just my random thought cause I've been on the run for 18 hrs and I'm getting tired.
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