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Post by Paws on Oct 29, 2007 2:12:37 GMT 12.75
Aha! That is my point exactly! That scripture in context to whom is it directed? Married men? Single men? Widowers? Those who have issued a certificate of divorcement? And why ..."look upon a woman... why not "look upon a man"? Were women exempt from the 10 commandments?
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Oct 29, 2007 2:25:26 GMT 12.75
Aha! That is my point exactly! That scripture in context to whom is it directed? Married men? Single men? Widowers? Those who have issued a certificate of divorcement? And why ..."look upon a woman... why not "look upon a man"? Were women exempt from the 10 commandments? Ok let's take these one at a time. Yes, yes, yes, and yes. It is directed to ALL people. NO! you have to remember that it was a male dominated society at the time. So Jesus used the masculine sense in most cases, but the Scriptures are valid to all races, gender, etc.
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Post by Paws on Oct 29, 2007 5:04:28 GMT 12.75
But how can a single, unmarried man commit an act of adultery with a single unmarried woman? Is adultery an act of lust between two folk of the opposite sex or between two folk who are not married to one another or between two folk one of which is married to someone else? Is there no distinction between fornication and adultery? If there is, then is fornication a sin or forbidden?
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Oct 29, 2007 6:17:06 GMT 12.75
But how can a single, unmarried man commit an act of adultery with a single unmarried woman? Is adultery an act of lust between two folk of the opposite sex or between two folk who are not married to one another or between two folk one of which is married to someone else? Is there no distinction between fornication and adultery? If there is, then is fornication a sin or forbidden? You are right, and I was lazy. Fornication is between two unmarried people of the opposite sex (by unmarried I mean NEVER been married) and adultery is between people of the opposite sex that have either been married before, or are still previously married. This does not include widows or widowers. To be specific, fornication is illicit sex, be it pre-martial or otherwise while adultery is sex between those who are already committed to another.
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Post by Paws on Oct 29, 2007 7:55:22 GMT 12.75
So then single unmarried never been married and widows/widowers don't do adultery if lusting after one another just fornication or intent to fornicate!
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Oct 29, 2007 9:23:42 GMT 12.75
Yep, or at least that is my understanding of the way it is
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Post by Paws on Oct 29, 2007 11:59:02 GMT 12.75
Thanks Pastor. I think I'm getting a handle on it. You know what? I think I figured out the key to the Ten Commandments too. Look here; if you do any one of those things thou shalt not do or fail to do one of the thou shalts, then you hurt somebody's feelings, break somebody's heart or make them angry with you becuase you have caused them pain.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Oct 29, 2007 12:08:13 GMT 12.75
The first 4 of the 10 Commandments deal with the relationship between God and man. The remaining 6 deals with man's relationship with other people. Nezt time you read them, look them in that light and you'll see what I mean.
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Post by Paws on Oct 29, 2007 20:33:29 GMT 12.75
Yep I understand and I'm st6icking to my original conclusions. You see, man's relationships with man is relationship with God too.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Oct 30, 2007 11:20:45 GMT 12.75
Back to the adultery thing Paws, I think the key word is WOMAN.
A woman is a female that has borne children. In order to have done so, she would have to have been married, right? So adultery is the lusting for or fornicating with another man's wife.
So, The sin is on the man that would pursue a married woman and a married woman who would encourage that pursuit.
We can still enjoy single women without offending the scriptures. Right Freddie?
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Oct 30, 2007 13:47:37 GMT 12.75
Back to the adultery thing Paws, I think the key word is WOMAN. A woman is a female that has borne children. In order to have done so, she would have to have been married, right? So adultery is the lusting for or fornicating with another man's wife. So, The sin is on the man that would pursue a married woman and a married woman who would encourage that pursuit. We can still enjoy single women without offending the scriptures. Right Freddie? Nope. You are trying to split hairs just like the Pharisees and Saduccees. The word woman is just like the word man. It is a general term, not a specific title. If a person of one gender (say a man) lusts after another gender (say a woman) then the man commits adultery, if he is married, or has been married. If the man in our example is single and has never been married, it is not adultery but fornication, which is just as bad. We are to look upon others with respect, not lust.
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Post by Paws on Oct 31, 2007 8:22:31 GMT 12.75
How come you reckon Pastor that fornication isn't included in the 10 Commandments? I don't quite have a handle on why adultery and fornication are so significant yet. I do know that adultry is a direct violation of an oath of fidelity and destroys marriages. I also know that I don't appreciate the thought of a significant other spreading their legs for every Tom, Dick and Harry out there! How can you trust a person like that when they do take the oath or swear to love, honor, obey, and keep themselves just for... etc, etc, etc. Maybe the whole thing is about trust; I don't know. Need more thinking on this one.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Oct 31, 2007 9:34:42 GMT 12.75
I'm not sure why fornication is not in the 10 commandments, but it could be because it just affects 2 individuals while adultery affects more than just 2 people. I have never really thought on it though. I think fornication is just as bad in God's eyes as adultery although it isn't mentioned specifically in the 10 Commandments.
The reason adultery is so bad is because of what it affects. When you married (or in Toby's & Rogue's case when they do) you made a commitment. That commitment was to forsake all others until death do you part. It was a vow before God. When a person commits adultery, they break that vow and that commitment that a marriage has to have to survive. God has chosen through marriage for the world to be populated and for a person to go against that is a very serious thing. God has also chosen through the home for a child to be raised up to follow Him. How can that child be raised up properly if there is no trust between the husband and the wife?
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Post by Paws on Oct 31, 2007 10:30:48 GMT 12.75
Let's see if this tracks: When I married my first wife she was a virgin; I wasn't so I had committed fornication. Since to the best of my knowledge none of the ladies were married I had not committed adultery other than when I took a good hard look at the landlord's young wife once. While we were married I did commit adultery with a married woman so we both had committed adultery. When Linda divorced me although I had committed adultery, which she had forgiven, she did not divorce me for adultery so she therefore caused me to commit adultery as a condition of her divorce. So when I married my 2nd wife I'm not sure if I committed adultery or if Linda did because of the conditions of the divorce. So if Kathy and I had sexual relations before marriage she would be guilty of fornication plus adultery? How about me? So then Kathy initiated a dissolution having taken a large sum of money from our savings and we agreed to divorce. So now who is committing adultery? Then I met Susan and we were married. She had never married but had committed fornication with half the county I discover. She tells me that she is not committing adultery now but I have a list of 38 indications of adultery and she meets all but two of them. I strongly believe that she is. Anyway if she divorces me for any cause other than adultery then she causes me to commit adultery right? Whether I do or not?
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Post by Mars on Oct 31, 2007 12:20:34 GMT 12.75
Actualy, it doesn't matter how many times you commit a sin or which sin it is. It only takes one to send you to hell and it does not matter which one it is. In the adultery case, once you divorce and have sex with someone who is not your wife, even former wife, then you commit adultery. Interesting to think that if you both remarry then having sex together is not adultery but having sex with the current spouse is. Just another messed up scenerio that Man creates by not following God's Word.
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Post by Paws on Nov 2, 2007 0:04:13 GMT 12.75
That's one of them catch22's Mars! Pastor made a good point tellin' us we need to read and study cause it sure does get complex. You are right too there as it is a result of not following God's direction. And all God ever had in mind was our best interests in the first place. Can you imagine tracking every law, rule, regulation, etc you can think of back to the scriptures or Commandments just to see whether or not man's laws hold water? As complex as the scriptures seem they are crystal clear and simple compared to our legal system. In Ohio you know you haven't committed adultery until you (1) confess to it and (2) a third party corroborates it! (Sounds somewhat Clintonesque doesn't it.)
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Nov 2, 2007 10:30:35 GMT 12.75
I believe that man getting away from God's law and following his own evil thoughts is why America is on the road to ruin. I have read that in California it is now a law that a child in school can not refer to his parents as Mom and Dad but as parents only. This is to keep from "offending" those that have homosexual or lesbian parents God called homosexuality (and I believe lesbianism too) an abomination. When we, as a nation, quit following God, but allowing man to dictate what he thinks is right we place ourselves in a precarious position. The same thing can be said for divorce, murder, rape, and the list goes on and on. People may call me a radical Christian, but I believe that we should do as the Scriptures dictate.
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Post by Paws on Nov 2, 2007 12:27:36 GMT 12.75
And you know what Pastor? I think that probably every single human being knows and believes the very same thing but will ignore it to "not offend" the crowd.
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Post by Mars on Nov 2, 2007 12:48:46 GMT 12.75
Being offended is a right that others reserve for themselves but not allowed to those they offend.Example, if I as a Christain denounce homo's then the homo's get offended and now we have laws saying I cannot say that because it's offensive. However, the homo's can say offensive things against Christians and it's OK. Same as Bro. Freddies post about them being offended by the mom and dad statement but it's OK for the homos to be together even though it's offensive.If that was my children in that school then that little rule would be ignored. My children have a mom and dad, that is truth and fact.If some putz thinks the truth and facts are offensive then that is their problem and I'm more then willing to push the issue, right down their throats if needed. The other truth is the other child has a mom and dad as well. They may not know who one or the other is but the fact remains that it takes a male and female to produce children.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Nov 3, 2007 7:43:36 GMT 12.75
Absolutely Mars! It takes a Mom and a Dad regardless of how the family is structured to raise the kid.
Freddie, I might be an ignorant hick. But, if woman were to refer to any of the female race, then he Commandment should read "Thou shalt not fornicate" not "Thou shalt not commit adultery". I don't see that as a mistake on His part, he plainly stated what adultery is and adultery is between a man and a WOMAN. Not a man (any post pubescent male) and a female or lady, but clearly a woman (post pubescent and having born a child). I read somewhere that marriage could be dissolved back then due to infertility. If the girl was barren, the husband could remove her from his house. Another suitor that came along and married that girl wouldn't be a sinner would he?
The sexual act isn't the sin, but the coveting or lusting after a woman. A female tied to another man via an oath before God and the bearer of his children.
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