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Post by Mars on Nov 3, 2007 11:57:25 GMT 12.75
The marriage wasn't dissolved. The husband kept her and took a concubine for the act of reproducing.The relationship of the concubine and husband was strictly controlled.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Nov 3, 2007 23:14:00 GMT 12.75
Ok. I see we still need to get this straight.
Let's go through all the scenario's I can think of.
First, a married man and a married woman. They commit adultery if either of them look upon the other with lust.
A married man and a widowed woman. Same thing as above.
A married man and a virgin. See above.
A married man and a concubine. It doesn't matter what people think, this is still adultery. Abraham committed adultery when he took Hagar as his concubine.
A single man and a married woman. Adultery.
A single man and a widow. If anything sexual happens before marriage, that is fornication.
A single man and a virgin. Same as a single man and a widow.
See. adultery occurs if either of the parties is married (or committed) to another. God places a high value on the sanctity of a marriage. And He wants that marriage to stay pure, that is why adultery is so bad.
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Post by Paws on Nov 4, 2007 1:08:59 GMT 12.75
Yes sir I think you said the magic word; "commitment". There is a lot of opinion in that Book about taking oaths, making vows and swearing promises so the violation of a "trust" must be way up there on God's list of important things not to be done. Hey you just made me have an interesting thought; Dealing with the wedding vows and such; remember in the last part of the vows... "What God has joined together let no man put asunder." Do you suppose that God doesn't even recognize our "civil" marriages and considers sex therein as fornication too?
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Post by Mars on Nov 4, 2007 1:52:39 GMT 12.75
Having a concubine is adultery but having a divorce(renouncing your vows) and remarring is as well.Atleast with a concubine you maintain somewhat your vows.God has always left us another way because He knows we will fail but can atleast take a "lesser" road doing it.
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Post by Paws on Nov 4, 2007 2:42:19 GMT 12.75
I don't know Mars, that "Forsaking all others" thing is pretty crystal. You know this would make a really great debate formed into two camps one being Vows written by God and one being Vows written by man. I can see really good strong arguements to support both sides. If we aren't careful here we may actually learn something! See what you did Pastor; gonna make us all smart and it's all your fault!
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Post by Mars on Nov 4, 2007 5:10:45 GMT 12.75
Not exactly what I meant so to explain further;
Gods plan is lifelong marriage between one man and one woman and He does not reconize man made divorces.However, under certain conditions, it seems He will allow a concubine and prefers that over a divorce or outright adultery. King David, God's favorite, was the most sinful in this regard but did so under the "plan B" rules. Atleast most of the time.
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Post by Paws on Nov 4, 2007 5:24:27 GMT 12.75
Uhhhhh isn't a concubine outright adultery; well except in Ohio where adultery only exists if admitted to and is corraborated by a third party What about multiple marriages. Polygomy is still legal in the Middle East and elsewhere and has been in practice for centuries.
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Post by Mars on Nov 4, 2007 7:15:35 GMT 12.75
Yes it is adultery and sin but so is divorce and remarriage. God's plan is plan "A" but He gives us plan "B" if certain things happen. There is no plan "C".
Plan A- Do exactly as God says
Plan B- Still is sin but atleast it's sin done by Gods "understanding".
Plan C- Totaly ignoring God at which God totaly ignores you.
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Post by Paws on Nov 4, 2007 7:34:05 GMT 12.75
Who was it that authorized "the certificate of divorcement"? I forget.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Nov 4, 2007 9:40:32 GMT 12.75
I never understood how a divorce can be so acceptable when two parties have stood and vowed, "Til death do us part" before God. Seems like if you wasn't the one that left in the divorce and you moved on, you fal under Mar's plan B, but the one that walks away wuld fall under Mar's plan A. Unless the feelings are mutual, then both are plan A sinners. I should probably be writing ths stuff down, huh? Freddie, I think I understand you now. The way you broke it down was exactly the way I had it figured in my head.
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Post by Mars on Nov 4, 2007 12:46:43 GMT 12.75
If your jewish, a former slave on the run and plan on wandering around a desert for 40 years because God granted your freedom from men then God says a divorce is OK.
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Post by Paws on Nov 4, 2007 22:40:43 GMT 12.75
I think that 12 years in a house full of cats is at least equal to forty years in the desert! Then, there is that death do us part option, Hmmmmmmm.....
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Nov 4, 2007 23:08:00 GMT 12.75
Matthew 4:18-22 (King James Version)
18. And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. 19. And He saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. 20. And they straightway left their nets, and followed Him. 21. And going on from thence, He saw two other brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and He called them. 22. And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed Him.
If you will recall, last week we saw Jesus in Capernaum. He had left the wilderness along the Jordan, traveled back to Nazareth, then moved to Capernaum. This was done so that the prophecy of Isaiah might be fulfilled. Today. we are going to look at something that I believe is very important, and while some might disagree with me, I believe it is supported by the Scriptures. Please keep an open mind as we study this passage today, so that you will get the full meaning of the Scriptures.
In verse 18 we see Jesus walking along the shores of the Sea of Galilee. Now, Capernaum, where Jesus was living, was about 2 1/2 miles from where the Jordan River emptied into the Sea of Galilee. From all that I can tell, Capernaum was on the shore of the sea, but about 2 1/2 miles from the start of this inland sea. The Sea of Galilee was about 60 miles north of Jerusalem, and is between 80 and 160 feet deep. It's waters are blue and sweet. It has an abundance of fish and at least 9 cities, with a population of no less than 15,000 were along it's banks. So we can see that the Sea of Galilee was an important place to the people of Israel during this time. Anyway, Jesus was walking along the banks of this sea when He saw Peter and Andrew casting a net into the sea. Now, we are not sure if they were toward the Jordan River, or along the western bank. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that they were fishing and Jesus came upon them. Two things stand out to me in this verse. (1). Peter and Andrew were not in a boat. They were either on the bank on just out in the surf fishing. Now, whether or not they couldn't afford a boat, we don't know. It could be that this was just their preferred mode of fishing. But whatever the case, they were close to the bank. (2). Peter and Andrew were brothers, so therefore this was their families livelihood. Fishing was how they fed their family. To me, these men were responsible family men who were trying to take care of their family. But the main thing we need to notice in this verse is that Jesus found them. Folks, when the Lord is looking for you, He will find you. There is no hiding from the God of the universe.
In verse 19 we see Jesus calling Peter and Andrew to service. They were already saved, because they had been following John the Baptist. In John 1:35-42 we find that Peter and Andrew had been with John the Baptist and after Jesus started His ministry, they left John and started following Him. I know it's a little confusing, considering that Jesus found them on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, so I will try to explain. From my understanding, Peter and Andrew were followers of John, but not full time. They would go and listen to his preaching, and then return home for work. But, when Jesus called them on the shores of Galilee, it was not a call of salvation, but one of full-time service. Notice the simple message Jesus used to call these men. It was one they could understand. He didn't say that He would make them Apostles, but fishers of men. They were fishermen, so fishers of men would have been something that they could relate to. Folks, we need to be more like Jesus and keep the message simple. He didn't use a long flowery oratory to call these men. He kept it simple so that they would understand. One other thing I would like us to notice also is the phrase "will make". Jesus' call was an ongoing thing. They would not be great fishers of men right off the bat, but it would be a growing process. Brethren, we should always be growing in the Lord! There is no such thing as knowing all there is to know about Him. That is why we should study and pray so that we can grow in the Lord. It is just like a child. When a child is born, they don't know everything they should know, but as they grow up, they learn the things that would make them productive citizens in this world. It is the same way with the Lord. As we grow in our knowledge of the Lord, we should be a better servant for Him. Are we? Are we growing in the Lord, or are we content to stay where we are?
As we look now at verse 20 we notice that they straightway left their nets and followed Him. It never hurts to identify who the people are, and define a word or two. The "they" spoken of here is Peter and Andrew, and the "Him" is Jesus. The word "straightway" is defined as at once. The word "followed" is defined as one going the same way. So, we see that Peter and Andrew left their nets at once and went the same way as Jesus. Their was no hesitation, no doubt. They didn't go home, as far as I can tell, to inform their family. Peter and Andrew immediately dropped what they were doing and followed the Lord. They answered His call! Brethren, when the Lord calls you, there is nothing that is more important than answering that call. Peter and Andrew answered by dropping everything and following Him. Would we? Do you love the Lord enough that when He calls you will drop what you are doing, no matter what, and follow Him? I have said on here before that when the Lord called me to preach, I resisted for several years. I thought that I would mess up the Gospel. Brethren I was wrong! I should have answered the call immediately and trusted in Him to make sure I didn't mess up His message. Folks, if the Lord is calling you for a special service, answer the call. It could be to preach, to teach, or just to keep the church yard clean, but answer the call. You will be truly blessed if you do.
In verse 21 Jesus goes further along the coast of the Sea of Galilee, I believe with Peter and Andrew, and finds Zebedee with his two sons, James and John, in a boat mending their nets. I get the feeling from reading this verse that James and John were a little better off, money wise, than Peter and Andrew, but I may be wrong. The family owned a boat, so therefore I feel that they had a little more money than the others. A couple of things I noticed in this verse that I think it would do well for everyone to notice also. First, they were family men. Their father Zebedee was a fisherman and they followed in his footsteps. Zebedee had raised his sons to work for a living, and they were doing that. One of the greatest thrills a father can experience is having his sons follow in his footsteps. Isn't that the same way with God the Father? He desires for His children to follow the example He has set before us. Secondly, I noticed that it was up in the day. James and John had already been out fishing, and were now back on the bank repairing their nets. Now, I'm not going to go into a discourse about the nets, just that they were probably a lot like our seine nets of today. What I am going to go into though is the repair needed on these nets. When a fisherman is repairing his nets, that is time that he can not be fishing, thus not supplying for his family's needs. So, keeping a net in good repair was very important. James and John knew this, and was working hard at repairing their net. But what spiritual significance can we draw from this? Folks, we need to keep our tools of the trade, meaning Bible and testimony, in good repair. We have to work to make sure our testimony is one that is showing the Lord to those who are lost. Can people look at your life and say "There goes a child of God"? Lastly, I also noticed in this verse that Jesus called them. It was the same call that He used on Peter and Andrew. It wasn't some other call, but the exact same one. Folks, 14 men were all that were ever called to the office of Apostle. I believe that 10 of these were exactly the same. But what is important is the call. Jesus called them to follow Him! He is still calling to man today! Not as an Apostle, but as a servant. Are you listening to His call?
In verse 22 we see James' and John's response to Jesus' call. Their answer was the same as Peter's and Andrew's. They left the boat and their father and immediately followed Him. There was no hesitation, no getting ready to go, nothing. I believe that they told their father good-bye as they departed the boat and went with Jesus.But what I want us to think about here is the faith it took these men to follow Jesus. How big was this step in faith for these men to leave everything that they were familiar with and follow a man who claimed to be the Son of God? There were others who had claimed to be the Messiah, but weren't. And John the Baptist was the only one who had actually claimed that Jesus was the Son of God, or at least he is the only one we know of. So how big was their leap of faith? Folks, it was a huge leap of faith for these men to just leave everything and follow Jesus. They left their home, their livelihood, everything that they were familiar with and followed the Lord. I believe that when Jesus spoke to these men, they knew in their souls that he was the Son of God and that they needed to follow Him. But it was still an act of faith to leave everything behind and follow Him. Do we have that kind of faith?
In conclusion, we have seen today the start of the first church when Jesus called His Apostles. It is my firm belief that this was when the church was started, not on the Day of Pentecost like some teach. We have seen the act of faith it took these men to leave everything behind and follow the Lord. They were willing to follow the Lord no matter what the cost was. Are we? Do we have the faith to drop everything and follow Him when He calls? Are we willing to follow the Lord no matter what?
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Post by Toby Benoit on Nov 5, 2007 17:53:09 GMT 12.75
I like the analogy about fishermen keeping the nets in good repair. I've heard it before and I like it.
One question though. Scripturally, there was no time line involved in Jesus's travels along the sea of galilea as far as the amount of time He would have lingered in the area as he was passing through, is there?
Did He come across Peter and Andrew and spend much time with these two fishermen? How long had they known Him and how long did it take before they could see that He was Our Lord?
I guess my real point is, after tossing down the nets and taking after Him, how do we know they didn't linger in the area with Him in order to prepare their families for their departure and that they didn't take Him home with them and treat him to a meal before leaving in the morning?
There some guessing involved here, huh? At any rate, it had to have been a leap of faith unimaginable.
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Post by RogueWarrior1957 on Nov 5, 2007 21:18:49 GMT 12.75
Uhhhhh isn't a concubine outright adultery? If I'm not badly mistaken, concubines have quills which they dislodge if provoked. Said quills work deeper into the flesh unless removed quickly, cause a nasty festering wound, and are difficult to remove. Therefore I try to avoid concubines and leave them alone whenever I see one. ;D According to legend, King Solomon kept about 600 of them on his palace grounds as pets. Okay...yah can trow the tomatoes now!
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Nov 6, 2007 0:15:14 GMT 12.75
We really don't know how much time Jesus spent, but from the way the Scriptures are worded it seems like Peter and Andrew, James and John, followed Him immediately and didn't waste any time. I believe that when Jesus called them they dropped everything and went with Him wherever He wanted to go. That brings up another point that I failed to mention. What is more important to us, Jesus or our job?
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Post by Toby Benoit on Nov 6, 2007 14:46:43 GMT 12.75
Another good point. Problem is, although I'd walk away from everything if He asked me too...how do you know when you're being asked?
It's like when you answered His call to preach the gospel to us sinners. You knew and you answered, but I know He didn't step down from a cloud and say, "Hey Freddie, ya got a minute?"
That's where the warnings about false prophets echoes so loudly in my ears. Folks think they're following him and wind up in some goofy cult drinking sour tasting grape soda and... Well, what do you suppose happens to them folks?
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Post by Paws on Nov 6, 2007 15:22:26 GMT 12.75
Really good question Toby! Pastor took a long time before he answered "the call!" Probably not because he didn't know he was being called but more likely because he didn't feel qulified or worthy. (Hope I'm not talking out of shop Pastor.) Some smart feller a couple of weeks ago I heard say you could tell the difference between carnal thoughts and spiritual thoughts because during carnal mental conversations the brain was talking to the heart but during spiritual the heart was talking to the brain! I know that for me there have been too many times when I "missed" the Lord's call/instruction. When you find out or figure out what was wanted or needed "after the fact" you can usually figure out "exactly" what He had in mind or maybe even see how He had your task accomplished through someone else who "was" listening. Some time back I mentioned to Pastor that heavy on my heart was what I thought /think was/is a tasking of the Lord to ; "Feed My Children." That's been quite a while and I still haven't figured out what that's all about.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Nov 7, 2007 0:16:33 GMT 12.75
The best way I can answer this is that you will know. In your soul there will be a desire to do what ever it is the Lord wants you to do. It will be a deep burning desire. When I was under the conviction of the Holy Spirit to preach, everything that I heard was about surrendering to the ministry. And I mean everything. Sunday school class, the morning devotional, the sermon, everything. I talked to my pastor afterwards and he said that he didn't preach that morning about surrendering, but I know what I heard. I finally figured out that it was the Holy Spirit convicting me to preach. When you are under conviction, you will know what the Lord wants you to do.
That where study comes in! We are to know the Scriptures so that we will know when someone is teaching false doctrine. I don't want someone to take my word for what the Scriptures say. I want them to search the Scriptures so that they will know if I am preaching the truth or not. I believe that there is a special place reserved in hell for those who lead people astray, if they are not saved. If they are saved, they will lose all their rewards, and not be anywhere near New Jerusalem. Thats why I study, so that I won't lead people astray. I want to be in New Jerusalem, not outside of it.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Nov 7, 2007 0:25:57 GMT 12.75
You hit the nail right on the head. And I hope I never lose that feeling! I am not worthy to preach the Gospel, but the Lord is using me anyway. I try to always keep in mind that it is a great responsibility to handle the word of God. Another reason that I resisted so long was that I didn't want to "mess it up". The Gospel is so important and I felt that I would cause someone to not accept Jesus as their Saviour because of me. But I learned that Gods grace is sufficient for the task He has set before me.
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