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Post by Toby Benoit on Aug 20, 2008 6:32:30 GMT 12.75
After eleven years of hunting with them, the New Archery Products "Spitfire" expandable bradheads, I've placed thirty-three big game animals (mostly deer and hog) on the tailgate. I hear all sorts of biased reports against expandable broadheads, some I suspect are accurate depending on the model of broadhead, because there is some junk out there, but a well designed expandable placed accurately in the vitals of an animal will take them down in a fraction of the time an animal hit with a conventional head will go down.
For instance, I have successfully harvested deer and hog with four different types of conventional broadheads and barring spine shots, I always had a lengthy blood trail to find my downed critter. Some trails were easy to folow with lots of blood and others were sparse of sign and required a lot of effort to follow, but a very high majority of the time, I did make a recovery.
There are a few that still haunt me that I never found, and a couple more I found days later via buzzards, but that's the risk bowhunter's take.
However, after switching to the "Spitfire" design of broadheads, I've lost one animal out of thirty-four shots and all of the thirty-three I recovered were located along very short, very easily followed trails.
The additional trauma of the expandable heads really knocks the wind out of the animal and they just physically can't go very far before passing out and dying from the loss of blood. A study from the early nineties showed that a mature whietail shot through both lungs with a standard three-bladed head could travel for 14 seconds after the shot. A deer can go a LONG way in 14 seconds!
In my experience with these types of heads, deer stay on their feet only about 8 seconds after the hit; not going anywhere near as far. In fact, most of the animals I've shot with a "Spitfire", I've watched them fall within my line of sight.
Which leaves me to my gripe... I've been invited to hunt hogs on a private ranch in Dixie County, Fl, but the ranch owner is biased against expandable broadheads. I have a few packs of Muzzy and Thunderhead brodheads laying around, so it's not that big of a deal, but the longer, sparser bloodtrails are tough on my fat, gimp legged ass.
I won't argue the point, but I really wish I could show him the flaw in his thinking. He wants to avoid wounded and unrecovered game. Then he should allow me to use the "Spitfires" to ensure that doesn't happen.
I'm grateful for the privilege to hunt there. Maybe down the road I can successfully argue the point and get him to let me switch back.
Alright, I'll get off my soap box. Meeting adjourned! ;D
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Post by Paws on Aug 20, 2008 10:46:23 GMT 12.75
Toby you make a good argument so argue it. Tell him politely that you really enjoy hunting his place and really will miss hunting there because of the dilemma with the arrow heads. Then tell him what you told us and thank him again for inviting you and respectfully decline. Plenty of other placers for you to hunt without compromising your values and you'll sleep better. Jesus even the spell check couldn't figure some of these out!
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Post by Toby Benoit on Aug 20, 2008 13:14:26 GMT 12.75
"Plenty of other placers for you to hunt" Just the problem there Paws, I don't have many places anymore that aren't public lands. Hog hunting in Florida has become a growing business with many ranchers getting upwards of three-hundred dollars a day for guys to come on their property and hunt hogs. Who'd a thunk it??? This guy is VERY cautious about who he allows to hunt his land and it took a bit of doing to get my invite, so I'll do it his way for now. Hell, I thought about carrying and expandable head in my pocket and making the swap after Igot to my blind....but that wouldn't be right either. So, I'll mope about it and grumble to you guys for now... Either way, I gotta get a new grinder to replace the one I burnt up season before last. Prolly one of them hunnert dollar models Bass Pro has in their last catalog. Can't afford much better right now, but I gotta do 'em myself since the meat cutter in Bushnell is asking fifty bucks per hog to cut and wrap! I can smell the sausage cooking already!
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Post by azslim on Aug 21, 2008 3:41:47 GMT 12.75
So try a new fixed head on your hunt. I have been reading good things about the NAP Nightmare and Rocky Mtn Blitz on the Archers Edge website. And based on test results they perform I think you will be pleased with these heads. They are easy to tune and strong & sharp.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Aug 22, 2008 17:36:45 GMT 12.75
You're right, those are both really well designed broadheads. I've got a few packages of Muzzys and NAP Thunderheads already, so I'll assemble some and test the blades for sharpness and see how they fly out of my current set up. Prolly ought not to have to move the sights much at al to accomodate the fixed blades as the bow is tuned very well.
Just a nuisance is all...
The first hunt on this property, actually a 130 acre Island off of Cedar Key on the Gulf Coast here in Central, Fl. will be on 9/11. I'll be sure to let ya'll know how I do.
I've taken game with Muzzy and Thunderhead broadheads in the past. It's the long bloodtrails I object to even though they do the job quite nicely and the trails, more often than not, end with a dead critter ready for the tailgate.
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Post by Two Tales on Aug 22, 2008 20:23:23 GMT 12.75
Toby, -I also do not like long blood trails (you have the pictures as proof of my chicken stems)..and it is for this reason that I use fixed blades...( I have used Muzzys forever)...most of the early research done on the expendables was done down in your neck of the woods..not up north where they were used most...due to the weather and other environmental differences they failed to preform as advertised...but I'll not lay the blame all on the heads alone..much of it or maybe even most of it was poor preparation on the part of the archer (who were lead to believe, by the promoters, that you didn't have to do anything to them but put'em on and shoot your deer) statements to the effect they fly just like your target arrows or (as I read once in an actual ad) because the fly that way you could practice less and hunt more..." Less time at the range means more time in the woods"...so in short the reports from hunters gave these BHs a bad name...also the early ones were not made so well...but like most things technology and improvements have virtually eliminated the mechanical malfunctions..but not the human factor (ya can't remove that) so I can understand were your host is coming from...and respect his rules and opinion 100% do yourself a big favor and tune each arrow to your bow, shouldn't have to mess with the sights all that much...if at all... back to long blood trails..like I said I've used the muzzy 3 blade fixed BHs for many years and my longest trail was about 70 yards from point of impact, most were 30 or less..maybe I have been absolutely the luckiest frigging hunter out there, but I have yet to loose an archery shot deer...'course I've only been bow hunting for 40+ years Good luck on your hunts and remember this simple and fast rule...PRACICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and when ya think you got it...PRACTICE SOME MORE
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Post by Paws on Aug 23, 2008 9:31:48 GMT 12.75
The broadheads are terrific but fail to perform aerodynamically as do the practice heads even of the same weight. I thought that was the plan behind the expancable tips. What I have are terrific. They open clean and smack the everlovin bageebers out of the target. Thing is I'd sure rather practice with a one dollar bolt than a thirty dollar bolt! That means my practice shots will perform more like an expandable head/tip soooooo... what's the grease?
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Post by Toby Benoit on Aug 24, 2008 13:24:06 GMT 12.75
Awe heck TT, I ain't no novice at this game either. I've worked in the industry in one capacity or another for sixteen years now and have been bowhunting for 25+ and I know all about the bad reputation SOME expandable broadheads earned early on. Same thing happened when carbon arrow shafts were first introduced. I gotta tell ya, it has nothing to do with Northern or Southern archers or whitetails. It's all about the bowhunter's shot placement and selection of expandable heads. There are definitely some JUNK broadheads out there, both fixed, replaceable, and expandable. Kinda tricky on guys that don't give the ir head selection the attention it deserves. One of my roles in the industry was with Satellite Archery working in warranty and quality control. I've handled just about every kind of head out there and have hunted with most of them. Over eighty big game kills (mostly wild hogs) later, I have no lack of confidence in my Muzzy's. Just wish I could use my Spitfires. Do yourself a favor TT. Buy a pack of Spitfires by NAP and try one on a deer. I think only then will you understand my frustration.
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Post by Two Tales on Aug 24, 2008 14:07:19 GMT 12.75
Toby, I completly understand your fudgestation....I have tried many expandales still head back to the Muzzys when all is said and done...my problem (nearly lost a nice doe once) it came as a result (in my thinking) from our near zero degree fog...the arrow centered her chest (heart/lung) made a clean pass thru....she took off, stopped and stood some 50 yards away....then wandered in to the woods...I actually thought I had missed at first... I went to get my arrow and found blood on it and a few splaters of blood on the ground, but the keeper was still intact and the blades were frozen solid in the slots.... I decided to switch to one of the muzzys and go after her...I wasnt sure as to how wounded she was...i followed her (not by blood but by track) untill I got close enough for another shot...I did a bit of exploritory and found while the 1st BH did infact poke a hole in both lungs the blades did not open to cause the damage it should have,,,,,she would have died, but how far away...with li'l or no blood to follow it would have been hell locating her...and yep I agree shot placement was the biggest reason for the bad rep...assuming or being llead to believe that your BH arrow will fly exactly like your target arrow will often lead to that,,,
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Post by Toby Benoit on Sept 12, 2008 14:21:02 GMT 12.75
You'll be happy to know them Muzzy's worked flawlessly...again! I bought a pack of 75gr. three bladed Muzzy's and once they were on the arrows and lined up with the fletchings, they flew like darts...as I'd expect. So today, not able to sling my Spitfires, I downed a hundred pound sow with a Muzzy. It wasn't a long shot and I was hunting on the ground, so I sighted in on the top of the shoulder where the spine passes behind it and dropped her in her tracks. It penetrated the top of the firts shoulder blade, broke cleanly through the spinal column, through the top of the second shoulder blade and through up to the fletchings. No bloodtrail! Now...what was I griping about again.....
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Post by Paws on Sept 12, 2008 23:48:52 GMT 12.75
OK, I'll bite. Why line them up? BTW, good job on the pig!
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Post by Toby Benoit on Sept 13, 2008 7:51:27 GMT 12.75
OK, I'll bite. Why line them up? BTW, good job on the pig! Lining up your blades and fletchings makes the arrow fly better. It may only be in my mind, but I get larger groups on the practice bale with unaligned broadheads than I do when I take the time to align them. It may make no difference at all on some broadhead designs, certainly not with mechanicals, but on others it does. Three bladed head always fly when the three blades line up with the three fletchings, four bladed heads fly best when one blade is directly inline with the cock feather, and two bladed heads are best when aligned with the cock feather also. Try it and see... I might just be wierd. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Two Tales on Sept 13, 2008 11:50:08 GMT 12.75
Toby, we all know you's wierd but you're also right on the money about linin'em up like that, I was shown that by an ol' feller way back in the early/mid sixties...been doing that ever sense...
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Post by Snake Eyes on Sept 13, 2008 21:47:46 GMT 12.75
Three bladed head always fly when the three blades line up with the three fletchings, four bladed heads fly best when one blade is directly inline with the cock feather, and two bladed heads are best when aligned with the cock feather also. Toby, I am not a bow hunter(strictly traditional M/L) but my son is, big time!I talked to him yesterday after seeing your post. Now he hunts with recurve,compound,cross and this year will be using a traditional longbow,I had made for him. Like you said just may be in his mind,but he swears by the method as you have explained it. Be nice to hear from an engineer that might know the dynamics of it all. There certainly must be a difference one way or the other. Trajectory,fps or something. snake-eyes
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noodles
Fire Builder
Sustainability Guru
Posts: 43
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Post by noodles on Sept 13, 2008 23:10:56 GMT 12.75
slipstream vs dirty air affect, just like racing, I would expect. Mind, now, Phil says I ain'n no 'njun ear. Says I'm to warped and not linear enuf. I be a sutler huntin up provisions. Speasking of which, if there's a QM out there assigned to Mosby's Raiders, I got a completed rekizition here for: 1 beef chuck roast; 2 pounds coffee, french roast, ground; 10 pounds coffee, green. I'll be bringin it ta the local market this morning. Hope you got the proper authorization papers to be signing for this here stuff. Constantine Why does Venezuela have such a problem with us trying to get at our oil under their soil?
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Post by Toby Benoit on Sept 14, 2008 11:28:42 GMT 12.75
Yep, I suspect it's a turbulence thing. Our oil under Venezuela? Chavez is being a dirty dick-head, but you blame it on us searching for oil??? Don' get me started amigo!
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Post by Paws on Sept 15, 2008 21:28:52 GMT 12.75
Yep, I suspect it's a turbulence thing. Our oil under Venezuela? Chavez is being a dirty dick-head, but you blame it on us searching for oil??? Don' get me started amigo! Go ahead start him!
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arkansasdon
Fire Builder
The more I study nature, the more I am amazed at the Creature.
Posts: 30
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Post by arkansasdon on Jul 6, 2009 10:38:34 GMT 12.75
I've always was a fixed blade BH shooter, years back I tryed diffrent expandables and wasn't happy. They seem weak, unreliable. Last year I was talked into trying the Rages 2 Blades , I purchased them and found they fly great, but didnt like the fact the one of the blades wouldnt stay in the fix flying postion. For years I've shot Magnus 2 Blades and for the last 3 1/2 years I shot the Magnus 2 Bladed 85 gr. Buzz-Cut with zero complaints. Last year I shot a 141lb doe and the BH I used was a Magnus 85 gr. 2blade Buzz-cut. Busted threw the shoulder bone and exited out right under the pocket of the left leg. About 6" of the shaft was stick out. I could reuse the BH without a question. I recently had my 06 Hoyt Trykon tore down completely by a Hoyt Dealer here in Ashflat, AR. a good friend who knows his way around a bow very well. I refinished my Hoyt in Nat Gear and add a few newer accessories to to modernize it (to keep-up with the times). The over all finish I put on the bow (over the camo) is a clear rubberized flat finish for sound dampening and it is extremely duriabe. After the bow was put back together and tuned "shoot'n bullett holes" my 2 blades are not flying like they used to. NOTE I added all new strings , cables harnses by Winners Choice" 139.00 worth. I went threw the motions and to get my old stand by's BH's to fly where my field points hit, with little to no sucess. Now I alway like to read up on new Broadheads and there Reviews, specially from Hunters , not these wack-o forums that test broadheads by shoot'n them into trashs cans, lawn chairs and any other make shift test target they can think of, and present themselve as one of these experts on BH testing. I purchased the New Carbon Express F-15 Expandable, do to its great "Hunters Review" on & under hunting conditions. I love to Hog hunt in TX & OK and one of the reseasons I like using Fixed BH's was for there durablity & the ability punching a hole in the shield of a 150 on up lb wild Russian Boar Hog. The reviews on this BH , F-15 Expandable has proven its durabilty and re-use by these true hunters re-views. I never thought in a million years I would ever say this, being a 100% die-heart 2 Blade Fixed BH shooter, I'm very happy that a company made a extremely durable expandable that a hunter can use for the cagey wild Russian hogs and use it over & over again W/replacement blades that are very easy to install. I cant wait to punch a hole into a nice Arkansas Whitetail and a TX or OK wild hog. The F-15™ Expandable breaks the broadhead barrier with a patented dual-blade design with one ultimate purpose – extreme devastation. Witness double-expansion that creates a 250% greater wound opening for a visible blood trail and a quicker recovery. One-piece stainless steel ferrule with .030"-thick 440 stainless steel blades for enhanced durability, greater accuracy and increased penetration. Size: 100-grain, 1-3/8" cutting diameter.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Jul 7, 2009 15:21:55 GMT 12.75
Have you popped any pork with them yet? I'm eager to hear your results. They look like a fine design and I wouldn't hesitate to use them myself if I ever run out of Spitfires.
There are a few expandable designs I wouldn't hesitate to take to the field, but there are a bunch I certainly would not...Rage is on the would not list.
Planning on doing a little pre-deer season hog hunting next month or two and will be slinging my Spitfires, but I been thinking about practicing up with my recurve and tossing some of them 2bld magnus you likeso much. Them or Zwickeys have been my standard for years on the traditional arrows. Penetrate s great!
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