kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Sept 8, 2008 1:23:32 GMT 12.75
I've set up a simple target in the front of a big brush pile with nothing behind it except a holler. It's just an old saw horse with the top of one of Constantine's round cheese boxes leaning against it. The Mossburg would blast the lid to pieces but it's holding up pretty well with the 9 mm.
I've been toting my 9mm, unloaded, around in my belly band, periodically taking aim at things while doing chores or meandering around the woods. Getting used to the weight, the draw, cleaning, etc. (It's been awhile since I've given these things attention.)
One review on the web gives the firestorm 9mm an A+ for reliability and a C-/D+ for accuracy at 25 yrds. It reports that at 10 yrds it is much more accurate.
What is "realistic combat range"? How far away from the target should I be standing? Also, how high should I place the target? Right now it's about 3 ft above the ground but it seems like it might be good for me to get used to aiming at something about chest height, maybe 4-5 ft. I think getting used to a variety of hts/distances, situations, etc., is a good thing but I want to start out in a manner that offers me greater potential for success as I try to improve my aim, stance and movements. Any suggestions? Thanks! kj
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Post by Toby Benoit on Sept 8, 2008 15:29:17 GMT 12.75
I'll tell ya sister, I'm no combat veteran or firearms instructor, but I do know a thing or two about handguns and self defense. You might best get some answers from Mars or Two Tales, but I'll give you my thoughts anyway.
"What is "realistic combat range"?" God forbid you come into such a situation, but it'll probably be a point blank range.
"How far away from the target should I be standing?" I'd think five to ten yards.
"Also, how high should I place the target? Right now it's about 3 ft above the ground but it seems like it might be good for me to get used to aiming at something about chest height, maybe 4-5 ft." My thoughts too; chest high. "I think getting used to a variety of hts/distances, situations, etc., is a good thing but I want to start out in a manner that offers me greater potential for success as I try to improve my aim, stance and movements. Any suggestions?" My suggestion is to utilize a "weaver" stance if practicable and practice "double tapping" at five yards. Get off two rounds as quickly as you can and work on controlling your hits until it's second nature.
I don't practice with my handguns for self defense...prolly ought to. Mine are for hunting primarily and I practice at twenty yards with open sights. I'm comfortable enough with any of my handguns that they will be a formidable weapon in a self defense situation.
Only gun I carry that's not primarily a hunting weapon is my .38/.357 Derringer. I rarely ever fire it, but if I gret in a situation to use it, I expect to be close enough that it'll be point and shoot as opposed to take aim and fire!
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kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Sept 9, 2008 1:35:52 GMT 12.75
"What is "realistic combat range"?" God forbid you come into such a situation, but it'll probably be a point blank range.
Ahh...duh..that makes sense.
"How far away from the target should I be standing?" I'd think five to ten yards.
Yeah, I'm about 8 ft out right now. The way I've got the old cheese box situated on the saw horse doesn't allow me to take it up higher so I sat down yesterday which let me shoot more at chest height.
I know it will be good to get used to shooting from a standing, even moving position, but I figure there will (hopefully not) be times when I might be hunkered down somewhere too.
Any suggestions?" My suggestion is to utilize a "weaver" stance if practicable and practice "double tapping" at five yards. Get off two rounds as quickly as you can and work on controlling your hits until it's second nature.
I had to google weaver stance and it turns out that is how I was taught in my self-defense classes years ago.
I'm a little uneasy about extending my dominant arm all the way however because of some little voice in me saying I need to try to keep the weapon close to my body. If I've got the gun out far from my center, someone could more easily kick it or knock it out of my hand. But, it's much more difficult to keep the tension...pushing out, while pulling in when the dominant arm isn't extended. Does that make any sense?
In anycase, I figure I need to get used to everything first before working on keeping things in a more compact package.
I noticed that instead of always pausing, aiming, breathing, etc., between shots that I actually did better in terms of the target when I fired a few in quick succession. I like the "double tapping" approach.
I also noticed that I am improving relatively quickly with practice...but it's an expensive hobby. I went through a box of PMC Bronze 9 mm luger 115 gr yesterday. (It was fun but geez $$, can't do that every day.)
Any suggestions for cheaper target loads?
I don't practice with my handguns for self defense...prolly ought to.
Yeah, but you're used to guns.
Mine are for hunting primarily and I practice at twenty yards with open sights.
Well, I've got some more research to do unless you feel like typing. Is twenty yards about how far you try to be from your prey when you're out hunting? Does that apply to bow hunting too? Sorry to be such a newbie...but what do you mean when you say with open sights?
I'm comfortable enough with any of my handguns that they will be a formidable weapon in a self defense situation.
Yeah, I'd be willing to place my bets on that as well.
Only gun I carry that's not primarily a hunting weapon is my .38/.357 Derringer.
The 9 mm jammed up for the first time on me yesterday. I thought...oh, this would be great.
I was originally directed to get a .38/.357 revolver and had practiced with one and with quick loads for awhile. The idea was that I could start out with .38s and work my way up to .357s.
So, when the 9mm jammed up, my mind went back to the need to get such a revolver.
Are you pleased with the Derringer?
I rarely ever fire it, but if I gret in a situation to use it, I expect to be close enough that it'll be point and shoot as opposed to take aim and fire!
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to program my body to be able to do well. Centerline, balance, muscle training...point and shoot.
I also hope that I never have to use the gun in this way but since I have it for self-defense I figure I had best get used to it.
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Post by Mars on Sept 9, 2008 2:59:20 GMT 12.75
I agree with Toby. With a handgun in defensive role then 10 yards( 30 feet ) should be adequate. However, it pays to fire a few shots closer and further out. The reason being is that under stress a persons judgement sometimes is off more then they would really be prepared for. When being shot at, 30 yards seems awful close and it is. Those I taught to use a handgun for defense I don't recomend double tap. I recomend shoot everything in the gun at once, empty it. You may not get another chance and I'd rather die with an empty gun then a gun that was only fired once or twice. It also gives you practice reloading. Get a friend and when your last shot is fired have them hit you with a stick with every hit harder then the last until your reloaded. You'll get faster and have a stress factor added to your reloading.
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noodles
Fire Builder
Sustainability Guru
Posts: 43
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Post by noodles on Sept 9, 2008 3:44:23 GMT 12.75
Get a friend and when your last shot is fired have them hit you with a stick with every hit harder then the last until your reloaded. Oh Mars, this sounds way too tempting. I would really need to focus on the importance of being serious. Thanks for all the input. Constantine aka noodles
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noodles
Fire Builder
Sustainability Guru
Posts: 43
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Post by noodles on Sept 9, 2008 5:57:38 GMT 12.75
I'm picturing two scenarios here. 1) It's gonna slow her down, she may like it way too much. Or, seeins that she is the one with the now loaded gun, 2) I'm gonna need to be able to run like ..... a deer.
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Post by Paws on Sept 9, 2008 13:09:21 GMT 12.75
Get a friend and when your last shot is fired have them hit you with a stick with every hit harder then the last until your reloaded. Oh Mars, this sounds way too tempting. I would really need to focus on the importance of being serious. Thanks for all the input. Constantine aka noodles Constantine I'd be happy to do it for you and I'll even bring my own stick!
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Post by Two Tales on Sept 9, 2008 14:50:57 GMT 12.75
Practicing at varied distances is a very good way to learn POI (point of impact)..aiming... is really not an option....point, pull the trigger and don't stop until you must reload...Mars suggestion would in fact help one learn to reload in record time...not quite the way I would teach it to civilans but he has a point...9 times out of 10 if you produce (show) the firearm, a would be attacker will not stand around long enough for you to get a shot off...but heaven forbid and I truely hope you never have to, you do have to draw and fire...point, pull the trigger and don't stop until you must reload...
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Post by Two Tales on Sept 9, 2008 14:51:36 GMT 12.75
Practicing at varied distances is a very good way to learn POI (point of impact)..aiming... is really not an option....point, pull the trigger and don't stop until you must reload...Mars suggestion would in fact help one learn to reload in record time...not quite the way I would teach it to civilans but he has a point...9 times out of 10 if you produce (show) the firearm, a would be attacker will not stand around long enough for you to get a shot off...but heaven forbid and I truely hope you never have to, you do have to draw and fire...point, pull the trigger and don't stop until you must reload...
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Post by Paws on Sept 9, 2008 20:40:52 GMT 12.75
TT double tapped it!
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Post by Paws on Sept 9, 2008 21:01:23 GMT 12.75
I truly despise the thoughts of needing to make the decision to kill someone. But the time for the decision is right now! so that when the time comes the response is autonomic. KJ POI is the most effective means for you to react at the moment of necessity. Make up in your own mind right now this very minute that when you point that weapon at a target your intention is to kill it. Then from this moment on never, ever, ever point that weapon at anything unless you are prepared to empty all rounds. Target practice is for aiming. Survival requires a response and believe it or not "cowboy" shooting has a lot of value and you will be surprised at the level of accuracy. Go ahead and "quick draw" some cans and bottles until you can smack them at twenty yards increasing your range as you become more proficient. Your range of proficiency should be as great as the distance between your most common location and your place of safety or your house given line of sight. Ergo if you are most of the time in the garden which might be 50 yards from your front door, then that's the range you want to work up to. That will give you the ability to protect a loved one from where you stand normally. In my case the range is 125 yards or from the back of the property to the head of the Rottweiler running for the Jehova's Witness Lady who is too stupid to stay in the car with her magazines. Your choice of ammunition is not going to make a significant difference shooting POI. For target scoring and precision shooting, keep the practice rounds the same as the competition rounds. As a matter of fact practicing POI can be made inexpensive by using a smaller calibre pistol similar in configuration to your 9mm or even an air gun. To a lesser extent the same can be done for target shooting; practicing stance control, breathing, etc. I really like the idea of beating Constantine with a stick though! Sounds like fun!
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Post by Mars on Sept 10, 2008 5:17:11 GMT 12.75
Stand off distance, a term that's usualy meant for the maximum distance of their weapon vs yours. In short, your weapons range is 500 yards and theirs is 300 yards so you have a 200 yard stand off distance that you can "possibly" hit them but they cannot hit you. It can also be used in this topic as well. Let's say the bad guy approaches to 40 yards and hasn't fired. The odds are that he is not comfortable with his abilities at that range and will attempt to get closer. Don't let him. Start shooting first. Even if your not comfortable yourself at that range he won't know that and he will stop and seek cover at his uncomfortable range or more likely,run. In this instance the standoff is not the weapons range but ability range.That's where practice at a little longer range helps. Sure you can kill him at 10 yards but so much the better if you can scare him off at 40. Even if you miss at 40 if you get close enough to him with the shots he's not going to be coming any closer thinking that you will hit him if he advances. You don't have to kill them as most of the time "scared" does the job and criminals for the most part are notorious cowards. They might think that $10. in your pocket is worth killing you for but they won't think it's worth getting themselves killed.
Like what's been stated, you pull the gun then the bullets should be coming out of it the moment it clears the holster. There will not be any better time then that moment so use it. Never bluff! You draw,you fire. NEVER,NEVER draw a gun and point it at someone without shooting it. Pointing a gun at somebody then not shooting and saying things like, "go away or I'll shoot", might look good on a movie screen but not in reality. If you draw that gun then you had better have already made up your mind the other person is going to die in the next instant otherwise your better off never drawing it.
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kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Sept 10, 2008 6:55:54 GMT 12.75
Thank you so much for the input and straight shootin' guidance.
Reality is reality and I'm learning a lot. I'll be re-reading your posts later as I've got work that needs to get done.
I think I made a mistake keeping the 9 mm magazine loaded all the time. I'm thinking I may have negatively affected the spring in the magazine and that it might be why the gun jammed.
Just seemed that if it was my emerg. gun that I would want to keep the magazine loaded.
I need to order a couple more magazines and definitely work on increasing my speed loading them. It's kind of a hard push for me right now and I'd be taking quite a few blows from the stick at my current speed.
I looked at the revolvers at the Ohio Valley Trading today. They didn't have much of a selection.
I feel more comfortable with the concepts behind personal defense vs. target shooting now. I'm taking your guidance to heart and will be following your recommendations.
I'll work to get to the point where I want to be in terms of security and then turn my attention to learning how to hunt for food, field dress, etc. I've got a lot to learn.
Wishin' everyone the best this huntin' season.
Thanks again. kj
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Post by Toby Benoit on Sept 10, 2008 13:25:58 GMT 12.75
The 9MM jammed, huh? Exactly why I'm a big fan of revolvers. My favorite handgun, and the one I reach for to hunt and keep in my vehicle for self defense is a Colt Python .357. It's absolutely the smoothest shooting gun I've handled and I'm accurate with it out to thirty-yards, enough to bust a Coke can consistantly, with open sights (Means no scope or laser aiming optics). The Python is a bit big framed for a lady, but I'm a big fan oft he round. Taurus has a line of revolvers you might look into that are moderately priced. Last year I saved up for a long time and finally got a Ruger SA .480, but the recoil was too uncomfortable and I sold it to my cousin Buckshot after running a half box of cartridges through it. Might buy me a .44 Mag in the no too far away future, but I'm satisfied with the performance of the .357. I've killed several wild hogs with it and never had to hit them a second time to put them down. Head and neck shots with a 125grain JHP has never faile me. If it'll drop a 175lb boar, it'll drop a punk likewise. Cheap 9mm ammo? Look up the Sportsman's Guide www.sportsmansguide.com and check their ammo selection. They often have bulk ammo deals of ball ammo for practice, but be sure to practice alo with the round you plan on using for SD because the gun may react differently to the different loads. And these guys have good advice about emptying the gun. Just be sure to have a spare clip handy. I don't use speed loades in my revolvers, so I must double tap in case there are more assailants lurking nearby that I would otherwise be facing with an empty gun...
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Post by Paws on Sept 11, 2008 1:48:08 GMT 12.75
Yeah auto's suck. Probably just dirty though KJ. You need to clean the magazines every time you clean the gun. Also before you lock your magazine into the butt give it a thump on the bottom on a hard surface like a table top, or maybe Constantine's head. If the rounds have "set" or there is maybe a little dust or something in there it will tend to dislodge it and loosen the "set" of the rounds. Mine is a Dan Wesson .357 revolver with an eight inch barrel. It reaches out real nice and the weight of the barrel is almost as good as having it ported. I cary a speed loader just in case I need more than six. Oh, keep an eye on Ohio Valley Trading for ammo sales. They mail out flyers every once in a while with some decent sales. Cabela's also has large lot sales occasionally with a good variety of 9mm. I have a 9mm carbine, my favorite firearm, so I am dollar conscious there also.
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