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Post by Toby Benoit on Jun 7, 2011 10:28:59 GMT 12.75
I was browsing Revelations earlier while trying to locate something to counter a conversation between Phil and I earlier today. Instead, something kinda leapt out at me and I was wondering if I'm reading this right.
Read chapter Eleven and see if you think that it prophesies the end of our nation...the end of the United States. I don't have the education of Brother Freddie or Jerry to describe what I see when I read it, but if ya'll want to go over it bit by bit and see if we come to the same conclusions, let me know.
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Post by Paws on Jun 7, 2011 11:11:11 GMT 12.75
I was browsing Revelations earlier while trying to locate something to counter a conversation between Phil and I earlier today. Instead, something kinda leapt out at me and I was wondering if I'm reading this right. Read chapter Eleven and see if you think that it prophesies the end of our nation...the end of the United States. I don't have the education of Brother Freddie or Jerry to describe what I see when I read it, but if ya'll want to go over it bit by bit and see if we come to the same conclusions, let me know. Nope, not metnioned at all.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Jun 7, 2011 17:21:58 GMT 12.75
Maybe not, but did you pick up your Bible? I was reading it and it just leapt out to me and made perfect sense, but I don't know how to relate to you what I was seeing or feeling as I was reading.
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Post by Paws on Jun 8, 2011 2:04:04 GMT 12.75
Maybe not, but did you pick up your Bible? I was reading it and it just leapt out to me and made perfect sense, but I don't know how to relate to you what I was seeing or feeling as I was reading. I did sir. What my experience tells me Toby is that when something happens like you describe it is a word of wisdom just for you. It often happens following prayer where the prayer is given answer in this manner. To me it was frankly all Greek. I confess it disturbs me that I do not see any clear mention of the USA in the scriptures. I did run across comment about "the young lions" and these comments might refer to US, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, like that as the Lion is the symbol of Great Brittain. I don't remember the context or where I saw it but I recall hearing someone mention the tie between "the young lions" and Great Britain sometime after I had read it. Until very recently I would have never ever believed that the US would/could turn our backs on Israel. Just goes to show that when the Lord says "all" nations that's exactly what He means. / (mixed feelings)
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Jun 8, 2011 10:13:14 GMT 12.75
Toby,
It has been crazy around here for the last few days. But give me a little time and I will try to explain what I believe the Scriptures teach especially in Revelation 11.
Phil,
I believe that the US is mentioned in the Scriptures but in a way that most people don't think about. Like I said, give me a little time and I will try to explain.
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Post by Paws on Jun 8, 2011 10:47:43 GMT 12.75
Toby, It has been crazy around here for the last few days. But give me a little time and I will try to explain what I believe the Scriptures teach especially in Revelation 11. Phil, I believe that the US is mentioned in the Scriptures but in a way that most people don't think about. Like I said, give me a little time and I will try to explain. Appreciate that Pastor. How are the legs doing?
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Jun 9, 2011 8:36:13 GMT 12.75
The legs are about the same as far as I can tell. I had to go back to the VA last week because of a bad spinal tap headache. They did a spinal tap on me almost 2 weeks ago and did not tell me that I was supposed to lay flat on my back for at least 8 hours. I came home and had a headache for about 6 days. When I went back they gave me a IV of caffeine and everything was good.
I have had 2 different ladies tell me that it looked like I was walking better but I can't tell any difference. I am about ready for this to get better. I fell twice earlier today and it sure is embarrassing.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Jun 9, 2011 8:50:59 GMT 12.75
Ok I will try to explain a little bit about Revelation 11 while I have a little bit of time. Before I get started please remember that I am NOT an expert on Revelation and that almost every person has a different interpretation of Revelation.
To properly understand this chapter you have to make sure that you are identifying each place or person correctly and that you keep them in their proper order.
In the first 2 verses of this chapter John (the author of Revelation) was instructed to measure the Temple of God but to not measure the court outside of the Temple. To the best of my understanding this Temple is in heaven (see verse 19 same chapter) and not on Earth. A lot of people say that the Temple has to be rebuilt before the Tribulation period begins but I don't think so. They use this chapter to prove their point but I believe that this Temple is in heaven due to verse 19 stating that the Temple of God was opened in heaven.
Another thing to keep in minde is where the Temple was located. It was in Jerusalem! I believe that this prophecy pertains more to the Middle East instead of the US because of this and what we will look at later in this chapter.
I will try to expound upon another part of this chapter when I get a little more time.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Jun 9, 2011 18:20:02 GMT 12.75
I hadn't read chapter 19, but Paws and I had been discussing Isreal earlier and I came to Revelations to dig around a little. The line in the first two verses about measuring the temple of God and the altar.
They I read it, the land without the temple, and they shall tread under foot forty and two months. I recognized that land outside the temple (Christ's lands) as Isreal. They'll be walked on by the gentiles forty and two months. Four years, minus two hundred days. Obama was in office about two hundred days when he started pissing on our alliance with Isreal.
It goes on; I will give power unto my two witnesses. The United States and our greatest ally Great Britain are the two largest Christian Nations in the modern world. "And they shall prophecy two thousand, two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." The same period of time...Obama's term minus two hundred days....
4, "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the Earth." As I figured it, the two greates Christian Nations are the US and GB.
It goes on to describe a terrible war, suach as we already are embroiled in, which we dominate, as we do. But after the days of Prophecy, as it goes in to describe in 7, the beast that ascendith out of the bottomless pit (Satan? Islamic Terrorists?) Will overcome us and our dead shall line the streets and the world will celebrate the destruction....
Reckon ya'll think I'm out in left field, but it sure hit me clear as a bell. I ain't prophesizin' or nothin', but I just don't know for sure what I was reading was right, so I thought I'd ask.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Jun 9, 2011 21:50:13 GMT 12.75
Toby,
Just a quick note before I head out to work, Go back and re-read Revelation 11 but this look at the two witnesses as real men instead of nations and see if that changes your perspective about what this chapter is saying.
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Post by Paws on Jun 10, 2011 2:09:41 GMT 12.75
I hadn't read chapter 19, but Paws and I had been discussing Isreal earlier and I came to Revelations to dig around a little. The line in the first two verses about measuring the temple of God and the altar. They I read it, the land without the temple, and they shall tread under foot forty and two months. I recognized that land outside the temple (Christ's lands) as Isreal. They'll be walked on by the gentiles forty and two months. Four years, minus two hundred days. Obama was in office about two hundred days when he started pissing on our alliance with Isreal. It goes on; I will give power unto my two witnesses. The United States and our greatest ally Great Britain are the two largest Christian Nations in the modern world. "And they shall prophecy two thousand, two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." The same period of time...Obama's term minus two hundred days.... 4, "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the Earth." As I figured it, the two greates Christian Nations are the US and GB. It goes on to describe a terrible war, suach as we already are embroiled in, which we dominate, as we do. But after the days of Prophecy, as it goes in to describe in 7, the beast that ascendith out of the bottomless pit (Satan? Islamic Terrorists?) Will overcome us and our dead shall line the streets and the world will celebrate the destruction.... Reckon ya'll think I'm out in left field, but it sure hit me clear as a bell. I ain't prophesizin' or nothin', but I just don't know for sure what I was reading was right, so I thought I'd ask. Forty two months is also 3.5 years or equal to the tribulation period.
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Post by Jerry on Jun 10, 2011 5:40:51 GMT 12.75
I have purposely avoided getting into this discussion, because Revelation is somewhat difficult to understand. However, I am going to make an input soon.
As a preliminary post, let me say this.
I believe the key to understanding the book of Revelation is based on the division given in the book itself in Revelation 1:19. (Revelation 1:19 (KJV ) "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"
When John received this vision, the Lord told him to divide the events in the book by this division.
The things which thou has SEEN (the vision of Christ Himself in this same context).
The things which ARE (the messages to the 7 churches (Rev. 2:1-3:22).
The things which SHALL BE HEREAFTER (literally translated AFTER THESE, in other words, the things which will come AFTER the church age.)
Also, the Old Testament book of Daniel parallels the book of Revelation. Much of Daniel deals with the rule of the Antichrist on earth (the beast of Revelation). You might read Daniel Chapter 9 to get some insight on the rule of the Antichrist.
There is also a description of the temple and the reign of the Antichrist in Second Thessalonians Chaper 2, Vs. 3-8.
Personally, I believe Revelation Chapter 11 is a description of some events that take place during the reign of the Antichrist on this earth. I will expound on this soon.
Please consider this post and let me know what you think.
Jerry
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Post by Toby Benoit on Jun 10, 2011 16:35:55 GMT 12.75
Thanks for helping out Jerry.
I considered the two witnesses as individual persons, but it seems way to big an event that the weight of witness should fall on individuals, but rather on nations. Atleast that's the way it made sense to me.
I'm a go read Daniel; might take me awhile cause I'm kinda slow on sinking it in. That's why I always appreciate the Sunday service here cause Freddie breaks it down real good and I can read ot over awhile till I get it right the way he's telling it.
Revelations is so much alliteration; do you think the seven churches is the seven Christian nations? The seven most populace Christian nations are the US, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, Germany, Italy, Mexico, and Brazil. Note, I excluded France; the Islamic populace is growing at an alarming rate and squeezing out the Christians.
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Post by Jerry on Jun 11, 2011 0:12:32 GMT 12.75
OVERVIEW OF REVELATION
Before I give an opinion about Chapter 11, let me give a quick overview. I gave this in my last post, but here is a little more detailed input:
Revelation 1:10-20 ( KJV ) I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
As I said last time, the Biblical division is given in vs. 19 of this context and is the only book in the Bible where a specific division is given. In this case, the Lord Himself gives this division. He says: “Revelation 1:19 ( KJV ) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;”
OVERVIEW:
1. THE THINGS WHICH THOU HAST SEEN. This refers to the vision of the Son of Man in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks or lampstands.
2. THE THINGS WHICH ARE. This refers to the messages to the Seven Churches which are detailed in Rev. Chap. 2 – Rev. 3:22. These are specific churches that were in existence in John’s day. However, they are also representative churches which detail well-defined periods of church history (Ephesus being representative of the first century; Laodicea, being representative of the present day).
3. THE THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER. Literally “after these”, or, in other words, after the letters to the seven churches (after the church age on earth).
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Post by Jerry on Jun 11, 2011 0:28:15 GMT 12.75
Now, let me say something about the two witnesses.
Personally, I believe these are specific persons and nothing else. Remember, not only do we have these two witnesses spoken of, but we also have 144,000 witnessess from the nation of Israel (12000 from each tribe) which are spoken of.
There is much debate on who these two witnesses are. It really does not matter, because, the Lord Himself sends them to witness to this earth about Himself. I have an opinion as to who they are and will provide that if asked. But, who they are is not nearly as important as what they do.
Theses witnesses were sent for 3 basic reasons:
1. To illustrate God's absolute power and authority over all things. These witnesses are killed but God raises them from the dead.
2. To show that God is not through dealing with the Nation of Israel. If not for these witnesses, it could well be that Israel would have been deceived and followed the Antichrist during the Tribulation Period.
3. To show God's mercy and that He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. You see, even though this occurs during a time of great tribulation and God is pouring out his judgment on this earth, God would much rather entend His mercy than His judgment.
So - right in the midst of God's judgment - He - once again sends witnesses of His unconditional love and saving grace. Thank God for His grace!
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Post by Paws on Jun 11, 2011 2:46:40 GMT 12.75
I want to know who the witnesses are.
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Post by Jerry on Jun 11, 2011 5:30:48 GMT 12.75
OK. You asked for it - here goes. THE TWO WITNESSES OF REVELATION FROM: Jerry (My opinion). As in many Scriptures, there is a broad diversity of opinion as to who these 2 witnesses are. Let me tell you who I believe them to be and why. First of all – I believe one is Elijah. In fact, most Bible theologians agree with this view. Now – I base my opinion on Malachi Chapter 4, Vs 5 and 6, where it speaks of Elijah coming before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Ref: Malachi 4:5-6 ( KJV ) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. The event described herein as the great and dreadful day of the Lord can only mean the Battle of Armageddon that occurs at the end of the Tribulation Period. There is no other event described in this particular way. By the way, that John the Baptist did not fulfill this prophecy as some contend, is based on the fact that John was asked one time if he was Elijah come back. He emphatically said that he was not. So, in my opinion, one of the witnesses that will come back before the great and dreadful day of the Lord is Elijah. Who is the other witness: Again, there is a broad diversity of opinion. Some say it will be Moses (based on similar plagues in his day that are described in Revelation). I discard this reasoning, because The Lord can give anyone the power to perform miracles, including plagues. Others say it is Enoch (based on the fact that only Elijah and Enoch never tasted death and the Bible says it is appointed unto men once to die and then the judgment – they contend that these two must come back to die). However, I also discard this view because of all of those who were resurrected when the Lord returned at the beginning of the Tribulation Period. By the time this event occurs, there will be a literal multitude in Heaven who have never and will never taste death. So, who is the second witness? Well, I believe it to be John the Apostle. I think that this becomes obvious when reviewing the context. In chapter 10 John is given the LITTLE BOOK and told to digest it. Then it goes on to say that John MUST PROPHESY AGAIN BEFORE MANY PEOPLES and NATIONS and TONGUES and KINGS. When did John do this? The fact is, to date, He has not prophesied again to all of these entities. Also, in my opinion, the only place where this prophecy can be fulfilled is if John comes back as one of these witnesses during the Tribulation. So, personally, I believe the two witnesses are Elijah and John the Apostle.
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Post by Jerry on Jun 11, 2011 5:59:27 GMT 12.75
I was browsing Revelations earlier while trying to locate something to counter a conversation between Phil and I earlier today. Instead, something kinda leapt out at me and I was wondering if I'm reading this right. Read chapter Eleven and see if you think that it prophesies the end of our nation...the end of the United States. I don't have the education of Brother Freddie or Jerry to describe what I see when I read it, but if ya'll want to go over it bit by bit and see if we come to the same conclusions, let me know. Toby, allow me to tell you what I think about the USA in prophecy. Although I do not believe this portion of Scripture deals with the US, I do believe that the US disappears somewhere during the early part of the Tribulation period. I am basing this opinion only on the fact that I cannot find America in specific end times prophecies. If America is not there, where did she go? Could it be that we are rapidly approaching the demise and downfall of this nation. If that is true, then the return of the Lord could be much closer than we think. Great stuff here and I'm glad to be included. All I will say to each of us is this: Time is fleeting at an alarming pace. Let's just be sure that we know the Lord as Savior. In the end, that will be the most important decision we make. Then, after we have settled that great issue, then let's consider the life we live. Why? Because we will stand before God and give an account. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask. God bless, Jerry
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Post by Paws on Jun 11, 2011 6:26:20 GMT 12.75
I would have said Araham and Moses but your selection of Elijah is very well supported. Well done! One thing though, somewhere toward the end of the wilderness wandering didn't God forbid Moses to enter the promised land? I seem to remember that God permitted him to look upon Jerusulam but did not allow him to enter as chastisement for striking the rock as I recall. What thinketh thee?
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Post by Jerry on Jun 11, 2011 6:44:04 GMT 12.75
I would have said Araham and Moses but your selection of Elijah is very well supported. Well done! One thing though, somewhere toward the end of the wilderness wandering didn't God forbid Moses to enter the promised land? I seem to remember that God permitted him to look upon Jerusulam but did not allow him to enter as chastisement for striking the rock as I recall. What thinketh thee? Yes, that is true. However, Moses did get to visit the Promised Land. It was at the transfiguration of the Lord and is recorded in Matthew Chapter 17 and Mark chapter 9. Was your contention that the Lord would allow Moses to come back because he was forbidden to enter the Promised Land during his time on this earth?
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