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Post by Paws on Apr 5, 2006 0:00:08 GMT 12.75
Since this is a study subject, please cite your references when presenting information even if it rumor, hearsay, or divine inspiration. I have a question about Satan. Was he booted from Heaven before or after the creation of man?
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Post by Mars on Apr 5, 2006 0:55:07 GMT 12.75
I have nothing solid to really base it on other then what I've heard from "others" and some reading but I'd say he got booted just after the creation of man. I've known a satan worshipper or two over the years and they all say the "devil" was jealous of man and that lead to his fall so that would indicate after.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Apr 5, 2006 4:38:07 GMT 12.75
"The Angels are the dispensers and administrators of the divine beneficence toward us; They regard our safety, undertake our defense, direct our ways, and excercise a constant solicitude that no evil befall us." - John Calvin, "Instituites Of The Christian Religion, I"
"An Angel is a spiritual creature without a body created by God for the service of christendom and the church." - Martin Luther
"He will give his Angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways." - Psalm 91:11
Is is the way that Martin Luther believed? That Angels are without a body, created for the service of God's will. Or are there Angels among us? People walking by everyday, just like us, guided by the grace of the Almighty to be on hand when we need them. If so, is it possible that God may call upon us in someone elses time of need to be there for them?
What if God does send an Angel and we ignore them and refuse their gudance due to arrogance and ignorance? Is it the same as turning away from God?
What if we were called and felt it deeply nside that we were supposed to go, but ignored that voice? Will God then turn away from us?
Can it be that we are God's Angels too? Is there a fourth class of Angels?
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Post by Two Tales on Apr 5, 2006 6:06:45 GMT 12.75
First off I not one to believe in organized religon...to many to much and too many questions...so I simply go by what I feel have seen or know in my heart...now on the subject of angels..are they bodied or non-bodied...human form?...some folks say they have seen them or have been touched by them...did not one appear before the shepherds?? or was that just the light of His "Grace"?...From my own personal experiances..I would have to say they are apparitions that take the shape of the minds eye, in other words you see them as you think they should appear...many folk and other cultural stories legends and beliefs speak of angels, spirit guides and helpers of all sorts that are not of this solid world...some in human form, some in the form of animals and some just the light...some cultures even have all three of those listed above...I don't study them, I don't have that need...I have been visited by at least 3 in my life time...who are they?? the spirts/souls of the chosen ones, a select few that mean something speacial to each one of us individually...I don't have any references to quote...no books, or even another person, except the inferance of the visit to the shepherds...only what I feel and know...
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Apr 5, 2006 10:53:07 GMT 12.75
Since this is a study subject, please cite your references when presenting information even if it rumor, hearsay, or divine inspiration. I have a question about Satan. Was he booted from Heaven before or after the creation of man? The word angel ( in both the Hebrew and the Greek) has the same meaning. That meaning is messenger. -Unger's Bible dictionary circa 1966. As for the answer to this question, we really don't know. Most references in the Bible of angels are a sign of the coming and the ministry of Jesus. I believe ( no concrete proof) that Lucifer was cast from Heaven before Man was ever created. Think about this with an open mind if you will. God created Heaven and Earth ( Genesis 1:1) Can a perfect God create anything that is not perfect? If He did, He would not be perfect. But in Genesis 1:2 we find that the Earth is without form and void. So, something happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I believe this is when Lucifer fell and when he got here, he tore Earth all apart. One Bible scholar I read extensively is Tom McElmurry. He is one of the smartest men I have ever met. Bro. Tom brought up this question. Who created the dinosaurs? If you will look at the dinosaurs, you will notice that they are not perfect. Some of their forelegs are too small for their body ie..T. Rex. and some had too small of a brain for their body, ie..Brontasauras. So could God allowed Lucifer to create an animal species like the dinosaurs to show him that he wasn't God as mighty as God? If you read the first chapter of Genesis, you will notice that after God created everything, He said "It was good" or in other words, perfect. And before anyone can say "What about Man?" well man was perfect until he ate of the forbidden tree. Just some food for thought. Maybe I'll have more time tomorrow and I can try to answer some of Toby's questions ;D
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Apr 6, 2006 11:39:13 GMT 12.75
"The Angels are the dispensers and administrators of the divine beneficence toward us; They regard our safety, undertake our defense, direct our ways, and excercise a constant solicitude that no evil befall us." - John Calvin, "Instituites Of The Christian Religion, I" "An Angel is a spiritual creature without a body created by God for the service of christendom and the church." - Martin Luther "He will give his Angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways." - Psalm 91:11 Is is the way that Martin Luther believed? That Angels are without a body, created for the service of God's will. Or are there Angels among us? People walking by everyday, just like us, guided by the grace of the Almighty to be on hand when we need them. If so, is it possible that God may call upon us in someone elses time of need to be there for them? What if God does send an Angel and we ignore them and refuse their gudance due to arrogance and ignorance? Is it the same as turning away from God? What if we were called and felt it deeply nside that we were supposed to go, but ignored that voice? Will God then turn away from us? Can it be that we are God's Angels too? Is there a fourth class of Angels? I don't know about Martin Luther, but not me. I have a few issues with what he said. 1. If the angels are the dispensers of divine beneficence toward us, then they are taking the place of the Holy Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit is the one who guides us and directs our paths. 2. An angel is not bodiless. Paul wrote in Hebrews 13:2 " Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." Notice that entertained is in the past tense. In other words, it has happened and according to Paul, could happen again. Now, use some logic here. If people entertained angels without knowing they were angels, wouldn't the angels have had to have a physical body? How can you entertain something that you can not see? So I can not agree with Luther on this point. Now for Toby's questions. ;D It is possible for angels to be walking among us today, but we can't say for sure. I do know that they would not be like Michael Landon in Highway to Heaven. If God did send his angels down here to walk among us, I believe it is with a specific mission in mind. After that specific mission is complete they would go back to the Father for another mission. Think about it this way. If you were sent by the Father from Heaven to sinful Earth, wouldn't you want to get back to Heaven as soon as possible? It is possible God could call upon us to help someone in time of need but that would fall under the category of brotherly love. One does not have to be an angel to help someone else in their time of need. In fact, Paul states in Hebrews 13:1 " Let brotherly love continue." As stated above, I believe that the Holy Spirit is the one doing the calling and not angels. So yes, if we do not heed the call, we are in essence turning away from God, because the Holy Spirit is one of the triune aspects of God. And to answer the next question, God can turn away from us if we ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Moses wrote in Genesis 6:3 " And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man". So if we ignore the leadership of the Holy Spirit, while we will not lose our salvation, we will be out of fellowship with God. When we are out of fellowship, our prayers are not answered, and we will not be blessed. NO! We are not a class of angels. Angels are Heavenly being, created by God, to serve God. We are earthly being, created to worship God. In I Corinthians 6:3 it states "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" How can we judge angels if we are the same as them?
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Post by Mars on Apr 6, 2006 12:59:28 GMT 12.75
They would have to be able to take human form as with Lot. Why are all Angels "male"?
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Post by CountryGal on Apr 6, 2006 15:47:29 GMT 12.75
Okay I have a question. First off I was awaken by a voice calling my name. It was a male voice. I was home alone at the time. Then a couple of days later I was sitting here in the chair Ia m in now and when I leaned back, my shoulder touched something. There was no one behind me. Now 3 days after that my 3 year old granddaughter was heading for the door, she stopped, looked up and said. "Pawpaw, don't make a ghost." I looked at my daughter and she looked at me and all we could do is watch this baby take a hand that wasn't there and walk out the door.
That baby was 11 months old when her pawpaw died. We don't sit around talking about ghosts and I can't think of a movie that had ghosts in it that she could come up with that idea.
Some people I mention it to said that my late husband is her guardian angle and he is watching over her. Could that be it or am I just imagining thing because I am having a ruff time right now and worrying unnecessarily.
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Post by gsoflittledove on Apr 6, 2006 16:11:16 GMT 12.75
What happen between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2. The Earth made chaos: end of earth's first perfect state and first sinful career because of Lucifer's rebelion. Overthrow of "the World that was" (2 Peter 3:5-8; Jer. 4: 23-26; Ps. 104: 5-9; Isa. 14: 12-14; Ezek. 28: 11-17).
These were taken from notes in "Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.
Dake; has references to the flood of Lucifer; that destroyed everthing, wher the flood of Noea did not.
I Beleive the earth and Heaven was made Perfect The Morning Starr (Lucifer) Starr was Earth and he had power to do as he wonted, He tried to overthrow Heaven, when he was casted down to earth with a 1/3 of the angles then God covered the earth with water and forbed any starr to shine upon earth, then comes vrese #2. God Bless
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Post by Two Tales on Apr 6, 2006 21:42:24 GMT 12.75
CG,
I'm gona help ya out here just a bit I hope...if ya read my reply you'll make better sense of it all...Most likely that she has made that connection...as I said I feel that angels are special souls that mean something to that person.. or in your Grandbaby's case visa versa...I also don't think you are imaging it..espesailly because you are having a hard go of it right now...conversly..the harder the times we have or the more on our mind the worry and pressures are the more they look after us and our loved ones...it's kind of dis consorting at first, but he's there because of your distraction...
Sweetie if you need to talk...I'm here...well in the morning anyways ;D ;D
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Post by Toby Benoit on Apr 7, 2006 4:09:54 GMT 12.75
"Wouldn't the Angels have had to have a physical body? How can you entertain something that you can't see?"
I belive in the things I can't see too Pastor Freddy.
What do you think of this? I hear and have read of demonic posession. What if Angels can temporarily possess us in order to dispense God's will. Like that sudden and crystal clear voice that sometimes pops into your head, calling you to some place or to some person in a time of need? In Hebrews 1:14 it asks, "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of the throne?"
John Calvin understood them to be the dispensers of Divine beneficence toward us, and I agree with your take on that. That would be doing the work of the Holy Spirit.
As Martin Luther believed them to be bodiless specters created for the service of the church and christendom. Could the bodiless spirits temporarily inhabit the mind and body of a person in order to carry out the Lord's will?
Mars, all Angels are not referred to as having specific gender in what I've read so far, but in Matthews 22:20 it says that they, "Never marry, nor are given in marriage, but are the Angels of God in heaven."
Only once did I see that an Angel was referred to directly as a male and that was Michael.
Miss CG, dear lady, I understand your rough time and that's exactly why the spirit is near you. Sent by God to bring comfort. I believe that very much as I have had remarkably similar encounters that brought me comfort and hope. I know as well that we are watched by those in heaven. In Hebrews 12:1 it refers to Anges as, "so great a cloud of witness."
Angels are watching out for us.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Apr 7, 2006 22:03:31 GMT 12.75
They would have to be able to take human form as with Lot. Why are all Angels "male"? Mars, I have no scripture for this question, but just my own thoughts. The Bible says that God is a spirit. but He is always mentioned in the masculine gender. Jesus was the SON of God, so He is also always in the masculine gender. Same for the Holy Spirit. So angels are also mentioned this way. Another reason is that angels are mentioned alot as having swords, hence warriors. In the Middle East culture, women are not warriors, in fact, a lot of times, men treated women little better than animals. If you look at the culture today, you will see the same thing going on in Iran and other counties in that region. Like I said, I have no scripture to back this up, but just a country boy's logic ;D
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Post by Paws on Apr 8, 2006 2:33:47 GMT 12.75
www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen001.html#1I have posted a link to The Blue Letter Bible in Genesis to help with some of the discussion here. Pastor I think the chronology of events shown in Genesis indicate that Satan was not yet created when God created the Heavens and the Earth. It appears in Gen 1:2 that virtually nothing other than God existed. Somewhere in this came the creation of the angels including Satan. I suspect somewhere just before the creation of man since Gen 1:26 says: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. At this point God speaks with "plurality" . Of course this may be nothing more than the "royal we" and the plurality might refer to God the triad or Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one. There is also something I remember reading where man was placed slightly below the angels and givern "the number of man being 6" to denote this. I can not remember where I saw that. Anywho if nothing existed in the beginning other than God and the angels were created later in the progression of creation following heaven, earth, and preceding man then Satan, who is an angel, could not have been cast down in Gen 1:2 With respect to the sex of angels, regard how God instructed the fowl, fish, beasts, and man to be fruitful and multiply. This instruction appears to demark a requirement for sexual distinction where no such distinction is made regarding angelic beings. While man has indeed been given the "power of creation", it requires two beings who are very distinct and different in nature with complimentary strengths and weaknesses. This fact in itself may very well be the distinction which places man "slightly below" the angels. Off topic a bit but sometime in the future I would like to see a discussion of Gen 1:29 and 1:30. I've also done a word search : www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/a/1144417452-3801.html whcih shows the use of "angel" in the Bible. This is interesting since "angels" are literally messengers and messengers may be flesh or spirit, heavenly or earthly being. Possible the use of the term "angel" for our purposes would be better revisedx to "Heavenly Being" .
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Post by Toby Benoit on Apr 8, 2006 4:03:11 GMT 12.75
This is a true occurance of an incident involving Britain's Queen Victoria, as told by the Rev. Dr. Billy Graham.
The British express train raced through the night, it's powerful headlight piercing the darkness. Queen Victoria was a passenger on that train.
Suddenly the engineer saw a startling sight. Revealed in the in the beam of the engines light was a strange figure in a black cloak standing in the middle of the tracks waving it's arms. The engineer grabbed for the brake and brought the train to a grinding hault.
He and his fellow trainmen clambered down to see what had stopped them, but they could find no trace of the figure. On a hunch the engineer walked a few yards further up the tracks. Suddenly he stopped and stared into the fog in horror. The bridge had been washed out in the middle and ahead of them it had toppled into a swollen stream. If the engineer had not heeded the ghostly figure, his train would have plummeted down the stream.
While the bridge and tracks were being repaired the trains crew did an extensive search for the strange flagman, but not until they made it to London did they solve the mystery.
At the base of the engines huge lamp the engineer discovered a huge dead moth. He looked at it a moment, then on impulse, wet it's wings an pasted it to the glass of the lamp.
Climbing back into his cab, he switched on the beam, and there he saw the "flagman" in the beam. He then knew the answer: the moth had flown into the beam seconds before the train was to reach that washed out bridge. In the fog, it appeared to have been a phanton figure waving it's arms.
When Queen Victoria was told of the strange incident, she said, "I'm sure it was no accident. It was God's way of protecting us."
No, the figure in the headlights beam was not an Angel, butQuite possibly through God's ministry of His unseen angels that moth had been placed upon that engines light exactly when it was needed. Truly, "He will command His angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways." (Psalm 91:11)
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Post by Paws on Apr 8, 2006 4:47:57 GMT 12.75
That's kind of my point. Delete angels and insert messenger and voila God sent a moth!
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Post by Two Tales on Apr 8, 2006 6:49:38 GMT 12.75
Paws,
My point exactly when I said "in the form of man or animal" There are ancient tribes, though most consider them heathen or pagan, whose "religion" parrelles Christianity closer than most will accept...call them messengers, guides or protectors/guardians, what have you, if they are sent to do a task then why question their existence as some do...a couple of tribes on SE Asian islands consider moths messengers from their "God" (and whose to say theirs isn't the same as yours, mine or ours) some bring good and being helpful while others represent what some would call the devil or evil... once again all I can offer in the way of proof is my feeling toward this and what I picked up in reading over the last half century and of course the Learning, History and the Discovery Channels oh and A&E also...
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Post by Mars on Apr 9, 2006 6:54:31 GMT 12.75
Paws, except Gods Angels aren't attracted to a "flame" like a moth. If anything, they are "anti-flame" and don't get splattered on the front end of vehicles. ;D ;D
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10scn
Fire Builder
Posts: 32
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Post by 10scn on Mar 26, 2008 13:40:30 GMT 12.75
In response to your original question, Chapter 12 of Revelation would seem to indicate that Satan was cast to earth not long after the birth of Christ. This chapter describes the birth of Christ, the war in heaven and the fleeing of Joseph and Mary with Jesus to Egypt. It's not exactly the Christmas story we usually hear.
Revelation 12:1-17
1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Mar 26, 2008 13:45:12 GMT 12.75
I hate to dispute you, but Satan was cast down long before Christ was born upon this earth. In Isaiah, Jesus said He beheld Lucifer (Satan) as a morning star which was cast down. Satan was cast down before man was created I believe.
The passage you are referring to in Revelation is the rise of the Anti-Christ and the league of nations that will invade Israel in the end times.
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10scn
Fire Builder
Posts: 32
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Post by 10scn on Mar 26, 2008 14:12:37 GMT 12.75
It's not a dispute unless someone is bent out of shape, which I'm not. However a good debate only strengthens both of us. My beliefs are that since Isaiah is a book of prophecy, the passage you are referring to is a prophecy of things to come and not current events of the time.
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