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Post by Toby Benoit on Aug 20, 2008 13:24:56 GMT 12.75
Awright fellers, I got a question for ya. I was talking to a feller Saturday at the Bass Pro Shop about carrying a small amount of vinegar to the field with me to wipe down the deer carcass before putting it in a game bag. He claims that the vinegar will keep flies away until you can get the meat loaded on ice.
Now, I don't skin my critters in the field, but I have field dressed quite a few in order to lighten the load I have to tote back to the truck. Would it be a god idea to wipe down the body cavity with vinegar?
Anybody ever do anything like that? Wouldn't the acid begin to break down the meat if you left it on?
What about for wild pork?
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Post by RogueWarrior1957 on Aug 20, 2008 15:32:38 GMT 12.75
I don't know about vinegar keeping the flies away...I always used black pepper and cheese cloth bags for that purpose. But Momma's old remedy to get rid of the "wild taste" is to wipe the meat down with a cloth soaked in vinegar. In case the hunter inadvertantly touched a scent glands in field dressing the deer, the vinegar will wash that musk off and keep the meat from tasting gamey.
Black pepper is a pretty good fly deterrent.
-Rogue-
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noodles
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Post by noodles on Aug 21, 2008 1:01:33 GMT 12.75
Your question and thoughts sent me to my childhood resource, "The Joy of Cooking" and the 60's version "The Joy". Irma, in her '43 version talks of a water or water and soda wipedown inside and out. She then goes on to comment on a "new" school of thought that dispenses with the above and favors a cut lemon wipe down. Key here is the acid being introduced, known for being a deterrent to microbial growth. In that most meat tissue in 'clean' on the inside(1), our biggest threat is contamination from the outside. This includes contact with internal organ contents(especially feces) and hair. This may also tie in to a comment in The Joy "all too often, gaminess is just the unpleasantly exaggerated result of improper care and manipulation before cooking". Toby, with as many deer as it sounds like you have handled, probably differently as circumstance may have dictated, curious to your thoughts on affect on flavor. As to black pepper, I find mention "Work if possible in such a way that after removal of the internal organs, you will merely have to wipe the cavity with a dry cloth. If internal bleeding has taken place, however, and fluids from the organs have touched the flesh, scrape or cut the flesh as clean as possible and wipe the areas with salted water. Dry carefully. If the weather is warm, dust the entire cavity with black pepper or powdered charcoal., Under 'know your ingredients', it speaks of black pepper being a wonderful preservative, but not why.
(1) Reference our dry aging beef for 6 months at 36 degrees F. Outside 'skin' of the aging meat is butt ugly, and only about 1/4 inch in one finds beautiful red meat.
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noodles
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Post by noodles on Aug 21, 2008 1:36:33 GMT 12.75
The following is from wikipedia It is commonly believed that during the Middle Ages, pepper was used to conceal the taste of partially rotten meat. There is no evidence to support this claim, and historians view it as highly unlikely: in the Middle Ages, pepper was a luxury item, affordable only to the wealthy, who certainly had unspoiled meat available as well.[16] In addition, people of the time certainly knew that eating spoiled food would make them sick. Similarly, the belief that pepper was widely used as a preservative is questionable: it is true that piperine, the compound that gives pepper its spiciness, has some antimicrobial properties, but at the concentrations present when pepper is used as a spice, the effect is small.[17] Salt is a much more effective preservative, and salt-cured meats were common fare, especially in winter. However, pepper and other spices probably did play a role in improving the taste of long-preserved meats.
I can see, as expensive as pepper was in the middle ages, the concentrations needed to take advantage of its antimicrobial properties, may have been prohibitive. Maybe not so today. Kathy thinks the charcoal may have helped form a protective skin.
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Post by Snake Eyes on Aug 21, 2008 1:43:15 GMT 12.75
Awright fellers, I got a question for ya. I was talking to a feller Saturday at the Bass Pro Shop about carrying a small amount of vinegar to the field with me to wipe down the deer carcass before putting it in a game bag. He claims that the vinegar will keep flies away until you can get the meat loaded on ice. Now, I don't skin my critters in the field, but I have field dressed quite a few in order to lighten the load I have to tote back to the truck. Would it be a god idea to wipe down the body cavity with vinegar? Anybody ever do anything like that? Wouldn't the acid begin to break down the meat if you left it on? What about for wild pork? Toby, Let me just say that at the time we are allowed to hunt, in Ohio, for deer,flys are not a problem. On the other hand,at times,keeping the deer cool is a must.All are field dressed,at least in my camp.Then the cavity stuffed with either bags of ice or dry ice,before going home,to butcher. snake-eyes
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noodles
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Post by noodles on Aug 21, 2008 2:15:55 GMT 12.75
The following is being asked of Ohio State Animal Sciences, with a reference to the thread address.
I am wondering if vinegar, pepper, charcoal, etc. may keep initial deterioration at bay and therefore not attract flies, rather than keeping them away as in repel.
Rogue, sounds like granny was right on 'bout cleanliness and gaminess.
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Post by Paws on Aug 21, 2008 2:28:16 GMT 12.75
Ain't ya's never heard ; "You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar." Actually grease works better so I suppose if you can mask the scent of fat with something.... Most hunters I know use pepper and cheesecloth when the game "must" be broken down to move else just get it to camp/home before you skin it out. When you field dress it wipe down the interior of the carcass with a "DRY cloth or paper towels as moisture only accelerates deterioration. Make sure you get out all the nasties in the digestive system especially the esophagus as high up as possible. If you plan to use the liver and heart get them wiped down dry, cooled and covered as quickly as possible and in ice quick as you can.
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noodles
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Post by noodles on Aug 21, 2008 2:37:55 GMT 12.75
For those times when ice/cold is not available? You say keep it dry. Logical enough cuz that's a prime reason for drying meat for preservation. Most all microrganisims need moisture to do their thing. Charcoal is known for its absorptive qualities. Would you think of pepper in a similar way? Probably need to be fine ground.
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Post by Paws on Aug 21, 2008 2:41:57 GMT 12.75
Uhhhhh.... , errrrr...., Constantine we are talking about....uhhhh, Oh geese Toby, you do it it is just tooooo easy!
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Post by Paws on Aug 21, 2008 2:48:01 GMT 12.75
For those times when ice/cold is not available? You say keep it dry. Logical enough cuz that's a prime reason for drying meat for preservation. Most all microrganisims need moisture to do their thing. Charcoal is known for its absorptive qualities. Would you think of pepper in a similar way? Probably need to be fine ground. That could very well be the case. In the Western states when the temperature is a bit high the hunters will take a large animal and dunk it in a stream or pond to hasten cooling. But they get it processed fairly quickly salting the non-food by-products to be saved and cleaning and cooling down the meat products in either ice or dry ice. Well, except for guys like Mad Jack who would rather stretch the stomach over poles, heat rocks and fill the stomach with water, meat vegies then toss the hot rocks in and boil it up!
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Post by Mars on Aug 21, 2008 5:56:17 GMT 12.75
K.I.S.S. Why do people make things harder then need be? Anyway, my thoughts on this; Forget the vinegar, pepper and deer "bags" and keep it simple stupid.(not calling any particular person stupid) A deer will not spoil, even in 100 degree temps if properly dressed for the weather and transported to a cooler within a reasonable time. Gut the deer! Don't be squimish or lazy. Open that chest cavity and legs and get rid of the body heat. Skin the deer. Skinning is way easier with a warm animal anyway. So what that it gets dirt on the meat, that's why we have a garden hose. Clean the carcass up. Some areas go bad quicker then others. Remove the diaphram completely,if a doe get the utter removed, remove the outer stomach wall and keep the legs spread apart. Meat to meat contact will be the first place that goes green. Flies? So what? They don't eat much and anything they do can be cleaned off.
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Post by Paws on Aug 21, 2008 8:31:18 GMT 12.75
I don't want no fly doodoo on my venison!
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Post by Mars on Aug 21, 2008 10:22:39 GMT 12.75
That brings us back to the garden hose. It's the maggots that will ruin your meat not the adult flies.
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Post by Two Tales on Aug 21, 2008 15:08:04 GMT 12.75
ok, am I the only one that took cellular biology?...the vinegar does not deter nor void attraction of flies to meat it does however break down clotted blood...take any clotted lump of blood and spray it with vinegar then watch it melt away....it's an old butcher's trick...makes the meat look real clean and removing the liquid/dring blood by spritzing it with vinegar and then wiping it down with a dry clean cloth or paper towel will lessen the chance of bacterial growth...both due to removing the blood and liquid and the effect the acid has on it; is it an absolute?nope!...packing the cavity with ice is a good idea in warmer climes such as Toby and some of our southern kin live...or if you have a longer drive than some of us...Mars is dead on about removale of the skin/hide..heck it's an insulating fur coat..it keeps the deer warm in winter (cooler weather in Toby's case) so getting it shed is only logical...CCD (cool, clean and dry) is taught in most hunter's ed class and has been sense the 60's...cool and dry are realitivly self explanitory..the clean part is not..as some will remember...seeing a deer strapped on a fender or across the hood of a car or truck....hauling butt down the hiway...this is were the clean part comes in..not the trival amount of grass or leaves that happen to always find their way into the cavity..it's the nasty stuff like road grime and dust and bits of rubber and who the he77 knows what else you could run into with your prize strapped to the outside of the car...clean also means keeping the creepy crawlers away...bagging it up in cheese cloth and treating it with pepper/salt or some acidic based solution is one way..I found that it's easier to plop it into a cooler with a good tight fitting lid and keeping the temp below 40 degree...flies and other pests just can't stand the cold...
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Post by Paws on Aug 22, 2008 1:56:38 GMT 12.75
Yeah, there are "finally" coolers big enough for a large kill. Yes TT we know about the vinegar. That's why I use it to clean my food preparation tables in the CW camp as well as my cutting boards, bread/dough bowls and wooden utensils. And I still don't want to fly doodoo on my venison! I prefer salt and pepper. And we all know that down there in Tennessee where they got them deer no bigger than a good sizsed Texas Jack rabbit you can skin it with one hand while holding it up with the other but here in Ohio you need a derrick to raise them brutes up to get at 'em. Hey Constantine, you think you could come up with a solar powered reefrigerator to pack out a three hundred pound buck? You know I think the only reason Toby asked is cause he needs something to do with that nasty Elderberry wine his Daddy made!
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Post by Mars on Aug 22, 2008 8:28:46 GMT 12.75
Probaly! ;D Seems I remember taking a few Michigan and Indiana deer last year and managed to haul them from those States back to Tn. without losing a single ounce of meat. I'd bet that the majority of hunters don't have a 610 mile drive to get their deer home. By the way, I'm enjoying a nice venison burger right now. Gotta make some freezer room for this years deer. ;D
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Post by Paws on Aug 22, 2008 9:07:44 GMT 12.75
LOL! I think all I got left is some burger meat and maybe a frost bit piece of back strap. I did fill the freezer with ten pound boxes of bratwurst though so got to do something! Hey, where is Toby? Storm got him you think? He could probably use a good bl... Err; forgot where I was!
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Post by Kirbyhill on Aug 22, 2008 13:19:39 GMT 12.75
Before our 1167 mile trip back from Wyoming we stick large coke bottles that we have filled 1/2 way with water and then frozen into the deers cavity and then lay our bucks on top of a plywood sheet in the pick ups back area. Next we wrap them in blankets and then a waterproof tarp and the way we go. There is still ice in the bottles when we arrive in Arkansas--and we also leave the hide on. Have been doing this for years traveling from Wisconsin, Michigan and now Arkansas and never had any spoiled meat but this is also done the first week of November!!
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Post by Toby Benoit on Aug 22, 2008 17:06:52 GMT 12.75
Holy Smokes! Thanks alot guys!!! I been staying at my pasture in Ocala on accounta the storm. Had to make sure the cows stayed put... Now, my main concern is that it's so hot an humid down here and I have had flies begin laying eggs on the carcass before I can get it out of the woods. I'm kinda gimped up and it takes me a bit longer than it used to, t to get my critters to the truck and ice. Mars is absolutely right, the fly eggs and stuff do wash off, but it freakin grosses me out that it's there! Taste Noodles? You bet early handling and cooling of the meat makes a difference. I can't skin them in the field though and still get the meat out clean, so I leave the hide on until I can get to a place to wash and process the meat properly. I do know that there is a difference. Hogs are a big deal too because the pork goes to rot faster thant he deer and the flies go nuts for it. I got a hunt coming up on 9/11 for hogs on Tiger Island with my bow. I'm not going to be able to bring the truck in and carry a lot of ice with me, so I'll be particularly worried about spoilage. So, vinegar is a no go for flies, but it does still deter other bacteria and stuff from growing. Might be a good idea to try it anyway to keep the meat from getting rank.
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Post by Mars on Aug 23, 2008 1:15:55 GMT 12.75
I used to be that way but the second week of survival school broke me of the gross factor. That rancid,egg laiden piece of meat was gross on day one. On day 14, with no other food in between day 1 and 14, that meat still looked gross, matter of fact it passed gross after day 2 but it sure tasted great!
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