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Post by Paws on Oct 2, 2008 9:51:54 GMT 12.75
Geesh Kathy, Carter knows one that tried to abort himn last year; twice!
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Post by Paws on Oct 2, 2008 9:58:01 GMT 12.75
God! What if she doesn't believe in your God? Even if she does, isn't it her right to choose to face the wrath of God and go to hell for eternity? Yes it is her right. Her God given right, whether she believes in Him or not. Belief doesn't change truth.
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Oct 2, 2008 11:01:14 GMT 12.75
I also agree, in my gut, that all humans have basic rights: • To Life • To Health and health care • To Nondiscrimination and equality • To Security of person • To Liberty • To Privacy • To Information • To Freedom from cruel, inhuman, degrading treatment • To Decide the number and spacing of children • To Enjoy the benefits of scientific progress • To Freedom of thought and religion I also agree, deep in my gut, in the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for all. My gut therefore tells me that if women are denied the right to an abortion, then all the other human rights are also violated. Also, my deep gut feelings are telling me that I need to be very concerned about the movement to classify all forms of birth control as abortion. Therefore, after great reflection, thought, and prayer while considering all of your valuable input; I have found the clarity and courage to respond: I agree with abortion rights. However, it’s not that easy or simple. I want to respond to your other comments from my head, heart and gut. In order to do so, I’m going to reply to the respective posts. kj I have to respectfully disagree with your summation. If women are denied to right to abortion then all other human rights are violated??? Give me a break! What about the unborn childs rights?? Do they have the basic human rights that you mentioned? If I am reading your post right you are saying that if a woman has an abortion to protect her rights it is alright to violate the rights of the baby? How can a person violate the rights of another yet maintain their own? In my eyes, and more importantly in the eyes of God, abortion is nothing more than murder, plain and simple.
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Post by Mars on Oct 2, 2008 13:39:29 GMT 12.75
Actualy, 100% of abortions are birth control.
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Post by Toby Benoit on Oct 2, 2008 17:23:32 GMT 12.75
I thought the topic was about Abortion Rights given Toby's statement was "I do not agree with abortion rights."
No one responded when I asked for clarification about what exactly we were talking about with regards to abortion rights.
"We did not delineate whether we were talking about human rights, women's rights, potential person rights, etc. No one even wrote back and said we are talking about whether abortion is right or wrong. There's a difference in my book.
Certainly, the question of who creates life, what constitutes a person, what constitutes murder, what the bible says, who provides care, social responsibility, physical/social dependency, population, are all extremely important corollary points." Okay, when I refer to abortion rights, I'm referring to the right of a mother to end the life of her child. I did recognize that there are some very compelling reasons to do so, therefore the practice should be a prescribed procedure conducted by a skilled a licensed physician.
I do not agree with abortion rights as represented by Roe vs. Wade.
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Post by Paws on Oct 3, 2008 0:17:48 GMT 12.75
I don't see it that way. Before you know it people will say having sex with a condom, using birth control, etc, is wrong because you're taking away a child's chance to even be born. Heck, they might even connect people who perform oral sex to the giant from, "Jack and the Beanstalk" as baby eaters ;D All I can say to that is..."I want my baby back, baby back, baby back ribs" ;D ;D If science developes a pill that makes sex organs taste like chocolate there will be no more birth control pills, condoms or abortions. Herpes will be relegated to "cold sores" and over time HIV and homosexuality will disappear KJ in order for your summation to apply it is necessary to infer that a child in the womb is not a human being. Is this what you believe?
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Post by Paws on Oct 3, 2008 0:38:55 GMT 12.75
Kathy, in the Federal Government I worked many years producing statistical data for various purposes. I learned early on that there were three widely used data collection techniques: (1) Monkey Symbols (2) Right Hand Extraction (3) Left Hand Extraction or "Muslim Adjusted" The first, Monkey Symbols, was used primarily for reporting recurring information at very low levels for what appeared to be unnecessary reports of little or suspect value. We had a battery operated monkey that would "cheep" and clap his symbols together a random number of times. Whatever the total of the cheeps and claps were is what was entered into the numeric data of such meaningless reports. The Right Extraction method was favored for quasi-important reports and was applied by pulling the information "out of thin air." The Muslim Adjusted method was popularly used only by the most experienced analysts as designed by my Good friend Carl W. Andrews who once said; " I may not have ever been there but I know how it is!" It is very similar to the Left Hand Extraction method except for the source from where the data is pulled and this source should never be discussed in mixed or polite company. I know that Mars has close ties to the government.
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Post by Mars on Oct 3, 2008 0:41:31 GMT 12.75
Maybe I should clarify my previous post.
Abortion is the only legal,man-made form of birth control and despite the reason for an abortion it is always used to control, read eliminate, a birth.
And before someone posts it;
The Pill, condoms, ect. are not birth control but pregnancy control. They don't stop a birth but a pregnancy.
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noodles
Fire Builder
Sustainability Guru
Posts: 43
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Post by noodles on Oct 3, 2008 0:43:24 GMT 12.75
I do not believe/agree in abortion rights.
What abortion rights are we referring to? Could you add some clarifying info?
Abortion rughts..... to me....... a woman's right and responsibility to choose, unimpeded by man's law. And yes, she shall do the reckonin' with the Lord as to HER reasoning. I look around at nature's kil,ling of the unwanted or unhealthey. And God/Goddess created all of this. Whatever judging happens can be by another. So to me, I think it is about freedom of choice and consequence. I got enough heaped ot my plate by the BOSS. I don't need to be buttin in other folks's judgin.
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Post by Paws on Oct 3, 2008 0:43:38 GMT 12.75
Maybe I should clarify my previous post. Abortion is the only legal,man-made form of birth control and despite the reason for an abortion it is always used to control, read eliminate, a birth. And before someone posts it; The Pill, condoms, ect. are not birth control but pregnancy control. They don't stop a birth but a pregnancy.
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noodles
Fire Builder
Sustainability Guru
Posts: 43
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Post by noodles on Oct 3, 2008 0:49:18 GMT 12.75
Abortion is the only legal,man-made form of birth control and despite the reason for an abortion it is always used to control, read eliminate, a birth.
And before someone posts it;
The Pill, condoms, ect. are not birth control but pregnancy control. They don't stop a birth but a pregnancy.
If they are pregnancy control, then it would seem that they are also birth control
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Post by Mars on Oct 3, 2008 0:59:22 GMT 12.75
Nope. For a birth to be controlled a pregnancy must be in process.
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Post by Paws on Oct 3, 2008 1:04:25 GMT 12.75
I do not believe/agree in abortion rights.What abortion rights are we referring to? Could you add some clarifying info? Abortion rughts..... to me....... a woman's right and responsibility to choose, unimpeded by man's law. And yes, she shall do the reckonin' with the Lord as to HER reasoning. I look around at nature's kil,ling of the unwanted or unhealthey. And God/Goddess created all of this. Whatever judging happens can be by another. So to me, I think it is about freedom of choice and consequence. I got enough heaped ot my plate by the BOSS. I don't need to be buttin in other folks's judgin. LMAO! No wonder you're so danged skinny! ;D
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noodles
Fire Builder
Sustainability Guru
Posts: 43
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Post by noodles on Oct 3, 2008 1:39:55 GMT 12.75
Nope. For a birth to be controlled a pregnancy must be in process. Can't we "control numbers of births' by controllin numbers of pregnancys??
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Post by Lt Colonel Bruce Reynolds on Oct 3, 2008 1:41:13 GMT 12.75
Sound like time for a "NEW" subject
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kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Oct 3, 2008 2:42:02 GMT 12.75
Good Morning Folks!
Hey, we got a bit of rain yesterday!!!
I've really appreciated the opportunity for soul-searching, thought and research on the topic of abortion rights. I know a lot more than I did a few weeks ago.
I really didn't understand what the whole Roe vs. Wade controversary was about prior this exploration; and like this conversation, it's really interesting to read the variety of arguments that came up in the courts around the topic.
It is to be expected that we too would have a variety perspectives on the topic.
My ex-hubby, of over 20 yrs, was/is a mathematics professor. We used to sit out on the porch with other profs and have great discussions on a variety of topics. Sometimes we would pick up one side or another and make a case for it; even if we didn't personally believe it or not. You've probably seen some of those behaviors come out of me during this little exchange.
There's a part of me that is tempted to get into that kind of debate around this campfire; but it's not going to happen. It's not the kind of dialogue where we can refrain from suspending our personal judgements to explore the variety of perspectives surrounding this topic. It's a topic that carries too much of a charge, personally and religiously.
KJ in order for your summation to apply it is necessary to infer that a child in the womb is not a human being. Is this what you believe?
Maybe I would make a good politician.... there are many factors that come into play on that subject. It's not possible for me to simply say "yes, a child in the womb is a human being".
One has to define human being in order to go down that path. One has to consider whether a conglomeration of cells with human DNA is a child. At what point does a conglomeration of cells move into the position of being a potential person? What does it mean to be a person?
It's interesting stuff and I enjoy that kind of exploration into human thought processes...but it's not something I want to do around this campfire. The whiskey is too good and the stars are too pretty.
All I can really say from my gut and from my knees is that I am extremely thankful that I was never in the position to have to decide to abort a baby or not.
I was never into mechanical or medical birth control and practiced what is called Natural Birth Control (temperatures, cycles, etc.) instead. I also limited my sexual partners although I was raped once but thankfully did not conceive a baby. All in all, I was lucky growing up in the 70s and I give thanks.
There were probably some around me that thought it was a big mistake for me to continue my first pregnancy, probably thought I should have had an abortion, but it was never even a consideration in my mind and it all worked out.
My second child was planned and then, due to my personal sense of responsibility related to world population, I had my tubes tied.
I am celebrating today as the birth of my second child took place 26 yrs ago today!
It is a blessed day for me and the memories of that young Kathy in Tucson, AZ going into labor and giving birth at home are precious.
I honor all life. I had to laugh at myself while mowing the other day cause I caught myself avoiding the grasshoppers so as not to hurt them. There are two young does out on my dam right now; I wouldn't be surprised if a buck emerges from the lower edge of the dam any moment.
Taking a life, any life, always carries with it great responsibility.
I say I'm sorry and give thanks when I pull plants from the garden. I refrain from killing insects, especially spiders, and instead capture and release them outside. I am sorry when a mouse has made a bad decision to come into my kitchen and I have to kill it. If I still had my live trap, I'd be catching and releasing it as well.
So you see, I am an extremist in my own way...ALL LIFE IS SACRED!
My old red bone hound dog was like a child to me, she was like a person in many ways...yet, I put her down with a 9 mm shot to the back of her head. It was extremely difficult and I was the only one who could make the decision.
You may say that killing a dog is not the same as making a decision to end a pregnancy, to prevent a potential person from experiencing a life, etc.
I can accept that ...but to me, personally, it all comes down to personal responsibility and personal decisions.
Humans have the ability to collect information, weigh out all the pros and cons and to make tough life and death decisions. We develop various ways to help us make such decisions, some good and some not so good.
If all life is sacred then any such decisions are made with deep reverence, sincerity and responsibility.
Since not all people walk this Earth with such an attitude we get into the topics of rights and regulations, education, religion, social responsibility, wars, etc.
In my world, ALL babies are wanted, ALL people are cared for, and we live in balance with the environment and all life. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for ALL...and we do the best we can.
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kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Oct 3, 2008 2:46:53 GMT 12.75
Kathy, in the Federal Government I worked many years producing statistical data for various purposes. I learned early on that there were three widely used data collection techniques: Yeah... how to lie with statistics was one of the text books in my statistics class years ago. Living with a math prof for so long also opened my eyes to all the various data collection and manipulation techniques. I had to laugh when I brought up the inquiry about 98%, and Mars came back with 100%...tooshay.
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kj
Pan Wrangler
Posts: 140
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Post by kj on Oct 3, 2008 3:03:13 GMT 12.75
Sound like time for a "NEW" subject I'll second that. Anyone else have any closing comments on the abortion topic? I've pasted the list that Toby shared with us below. If we're ready for a breather we could also consider some less volatile, potentially polarized subjects for while. What do you want to chat about? Kudos, thanks, Toby for sharing this list of your views in such a straight-forward fashion. Does it look like I got them all? 9.20.08 - Yes, I do want off-shore oil drilling/exploration. - No, I do not believe in homosexual marriages. - No, I do not approve of negotiating with terrorist backed countries (Iran). - Yes, I do believe that every American has the right to keep and bear arms. - Yes, I do believe in the job our military is doing in the middle east. - No, I do not feel comfortable electing a Commander In Chief with only 143 days worth of experience in national politics. - Yes, I do think the Commander In Chief of the U. S. Military should have military service in his background. - No, after reading excerpts from Michelle Obama's college thesis on racism in America, I DO NOT want that racist bitch to be our nation's first lady. - No, I don't think that during a world-wide conflict with Islam, we should elect an Arabic (50%white, 46%Arabic, & 4%black African) muslum sympathizer, who's pastor of twenty years has made a preaching career out of racism and distrust of the American government and openly praises the preaching of Nation Of Islam leader Louis Farakhan. - Yes, I do believe that we should have fewer welfare programs and more jobs! -Yes, I do think that wire-tapping, in cases of national security, should not be made illegal. -Yes, I do support the American Farmer and wish to continue the farm subsidy programs in place. -Yes, I do agree to limited logging in National park as a means of wildfire prevention. - No, I do not agree to imposing further taxes on "Big Oil" to fund government programs to research altrernative fuels. (They'll only pass the expense on to the consumer) - Whether either party will do a good job is beyond me. It's just that I think McCain/Palin will do less harm!
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Post by Carter Northcutt on Oct 3, 2008 3:21:51 GMT 12.75
Here is my last thought on the abortion topic: I am not going to change my mind on it and apparently no one else is either. We were given the knowledge of many things whether they be for good or evil. It is how and when we use what we know that finally determines if we used it for good or not. Even then there will be two sides still debating it. Example, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, was it good or evil to drop them? How many lives were saved by doing it? This reminds me of a time in college (several years ago) when my buddy and I got a few fellow students riled up by saying that the tribes in Africa where they still use spears and such ought to be given nuclear tipped spearheads and anything else we could conjure up just to get them going. We had fun watching their reactions. ;D Come on down to saloon and join in on the road trip. Everyone is way too tense and needs to relax
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Post by Paws on Oct 3, 2008 11:44:01 GMT 12.75
Hmmmmm; soooooo....... KJ is the first PWd female I ever met, Noodles is PWd, Toby is PWd, Carter is going to hell (for being a Catholic and for being a bad Catholic.) Oh and Carter is definitely PWd. Boy it sure is a good thing y'all got Mars, me, and Pastor Freddie to provide clear and proper direction for you'ins. Oh, Major is PW'd too! p.s. Roe V Wade was decided based on the individual's "right to privacy." (Just thought you'd like to know)
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