Post by kj on Sept 25, 2008 2:37:22 GMT 12.75
Hey Toby and all,
I haven't forgotten and I'm not dissing your invitation to dance with regard to your position statements on tough topics. I've just been swamped with work, like many of you out there.
I can't find where your original posting landed in these files. I have them saved on a word doc though so I'll refer to it, or perhaps post them here, as we start moving through the statements.
I also want to post the conversation agreements again to help keep us from tripping over each other's feet. I would greatly appreciate it if folks would agree to them before joining the conversation. Is that too much to ask?
Maybe I'll add them over by my avatar so we (i) might remember them as we go.
I've been watching way too many good friends get in heated arguments and start launching attacks over these topics and the political circus in general. One friend said it is like a drunken superbowl party with guys yelling and throwing things at each other.
I know some folks really like that kind of interaction however I really don't want to participate in that kind of dance if possible. The points you brought up are sincere and serious topics and I am very interested in exploring them with you. If I get nailed to the wall, or if anyone else does, about anything we might say...it will be a bummer.
I know we all have established patterns and are capable of blowing fuses once in awhile, but I'll be off this list in a blink of an eye if there isn't any desire to improve while trying to learn communication skills that may prevent it from happening in the future.
I really think we need to learn to talk to each other with respect about such things...even if we strongly disagree with each other. I think our world and the future of our kids depend upon it.
I believe the first statement that was posted was:
I do not believe/agree in abortion rights.
What abortion rights are we referring to?
Could you add some clarifying info?
It would help me to know...are we talking Roe vs Wade?
If so, I need to do some homework.
I'll also continue my reflections and ask you to do the same.
Perhaps thinking of it in terms of your mother, gal pal, or Chicken will help bring this topic into focus and into reality.
What if something awful happens and/or their life situations are going to make it extremely difficult to carry, birth and care for a child?
What if their chances of dying in childbirth are extremely high?
What if a woman already has 10 kids and her death would mean the kids wouldn't have a mother and caregiver?
What options do such women have?
Do they have any options/rights to seek safe medical assistance?
I have not partaken in any so-called pro-choice or pro-life debates. I am clueless of the respective strategies, sound bites, etc., although I may have passively absorbed some things via the media. I have to watch for such things and do so via processes of deep reflection and prayer.
My background is as a mother who chose to have her babies during a difficult period of life and has never been in the position to have to make such a terrible decision.
However, I have been with women who have been in such situations and I know intimately how difficult it is and how amazing these women are, whether they choose one path or another.
I think women are charged with having to make such tough choices from time to time and if they are sincere, in good relation to God, etc., they are capable of finding the best option. They also have the ability and power to live with such a decision even if it means they will be haunted by grief and sorrow for the rest of their lives.
Should we as a civilized society really disrespect women by thinking they couldn't possibly be mature and wise enough to make such tough decisions?
Should we deny women access to all the options, including a clean, sterile and medical setting with skilled assistants if necessary?
As a RN OB nurse, childbirth educator, lactation consultant and home birth midwife, I have been with women who have chosen to continue their pregnancies and give birth to their babies in high risk and very tough home environmental situations, i.e. abusive partners, inabililty to meet basic needs, 13 + kids like in the Amish community, etc. They were aware of the consequences and chose to accept them.
In my current role as a RN Intake Assessor for a state assistance program I have also met many parents who are struggling to care for children with cognitive and developmental disabilities, including extreme behavioural outbursts. Such kids/families do not qualify for the Ohio Home Care program. The MRDD waivers are suppose to meet their needs but those programs don't have adequate funding. These folks are desparate, have no where to turn, and it breaks my heart to tell them they don't meet the eligibility requirements.
Sarah Palin is lucky and priviledged to have someone else tote and care for her little child with Down's Syndrome. I don't know anyone around here with that kind of support or ability to pay for almost continual babysitter/assistant services. Perhaps the woman who was carrying her baby around during the convention, etc., is the baby's sister, but is it fair for her to have to assume such responsibilities?
My point in all that is not that such disabled children should be prevented from coming into the world, but rather we all need to do something to ensure all parents have access to the help they need. Or, do we really want to be a civilization that says tough luck, you're on your own.
I will add that I think we need to work toward rebuilding our family, community and faith-based structures instead of depending on governmental social aid. But, are we all doing what we can to to strengthen those systems or are we just arguing about abortion rights while passing judgements about other people's decisions?
I have also listened to the stories from older women, including my mother-in-law, about back alley abortions. The images remain and they make me crinch to this day.
As a hospice and palliative care nurse I have also been with folks who have had to make extremely difficult decisions regarding quality of life and/or death. What options/rights do they have? oops..that's another topic.
Folks are amazing when it comes down to these hard-core aspects of life. As a professional I honor the rights people have for respect and dignity even if I disagree with some of their decisions. As a human, I am interested in developing my heart of service with compassion and forgiveness as underlying tenets.
Is it for us to decide that women, or anyone, should be denied safe and civilized options especially if it such services are not being funded via our tax payor dollars?
What about the 95 year old guy who has heart problems, is in denial about his natural life span but still insists upon getting a heart transplant? Does he have a right to that heart and all the resources it will take from others in society, even if he has the dollars to pay for it? (oops...another side track. I promise I will work on staying on topic, it's just that there are so many inter-related aspects to such things.)
So, as you can see, I have more questions than answers or opinions on such matters. I actually prefer, as touched on above, to think about the goal oriented strategies.
If we don't agree with abortion rights what should we do to ensure all babies have loving parents and a home that can adequately meet their needs, food, clothing, warmth, health care, education, etc. Also what can we do to ensure that those parents have some respite so their marriage and family can remain healthy and intact?
Perhaps Jerry, Bro Freddie and/or some of our other religious/spiritual guides and elders could also offer a blessing and some tips from the good Lord before we embark on this conversational journey.
Perhaps they could also add their own input from their hearts and a biblical sense while helping to make sure we maintain a proper attitude toward each other.
How would Jesus behave and respond around this campfire ring?
What would Jesus have to say to a women in distress over a pregnancy?
What would he do to help her and her unborn child?
See...more questions than answers.
Agreements:
Paws rules: courtesy and respect.
To expand on those:
- I'll strive not to make assumptions or take things personally.
- I'll strive to be open-minded, to listen and respect all points of view.
- I'll strive to accept where you are coming from and suspend my judgement as best as I can.
- I'll strive to maintain a position of curiosity; to seek to understand your points of view rather than to persuade you to my way of thinking or viewing the world.
- I'll strive to maintain a sense of discovery while looking for new insights.
- I will do my best to be sincere and speak from my heart with meaning.
- And yes, I will try to write clearly, briefly and not go on and on and on.
Can you agree to these things? If so, I'll feel safer venturing out on the dance floor.
Do you even still want to dance and/or share in good cup'o joe around the campfire?
Are there any other agreements that you or anyone would like to add to the list above?
Love, kj
I haven't forgotten and I'm not dissing your invitation to dance with regard to your position statements on tough topics. I've just been swamped with work, like many of you out there.
I can't find where your original posting landed in these files. I have them saved on a word doc though so I'll refer to it, or perhaps post them here, as we start moving through the statements.
I also want to post the conversation agreements again to help keep us from tripping over each other's feet. I would greatly appreciate it if folks would agree to them before joining the conversation. Is that too much to ask?
Maybe I'll add them over by my avatar so we (i) might remember them as we go.
I've been watching way too many good friends get in heated arguments and start launching attacks over these topics and the political circus in general. One friend said it is like a drunken superbowl party with guys yelling and throwing things at each other.
I know some folks really like that kind of interaction however I really don't want to participate in that kind of dance if possible. The points you brought up are sincere and serious topics and I am very interested in exploring them with you. If I get nailed to the wall, or if anyone else does, about anything we might say...it will be a bummer.
I know we all have established patterns and are capable of blowing fuses once in awhile, but I'll be off this list in a blink of an eye if there isn't any desire to improve while trying to learn communication skills that may prevent it from happening in the future.
I really think we need to learn to talk to each other with respect about such things...even if we strongly disagree with each other. I think our world and the future of our kids depend upon it.
I believe the first statement that was posted was:
I do not believe/agree in abortion rights.
What abortion rights are we referring to?
Could you add some clarifying info?
It would help me to know...are we talking Roe vs Wade?
If so, I need to do some homework.
I'll also continue my reflections and ask you to do the same.
Perhaps thinking of it in terms of your mother, gal pal, or Chicken will help bring this topic into focus and into reality.
What if something awful happens and/or their life situations are going to make it extremely difficult to carry, birth and care for a child?
What if their chances of dying in childbirth are extremely high?
What if a woman already has 10 kids and her death would mean the kids wouldn't have a mother and caregiver?
What options do such women have?
Do they have any options/rights to seek safe medical assistance?
I have not partaken in any so-called pro-choice or pro-life debates. I am clueless of the respective strategies, sound bites, etc., although I may have passively absorbed some things via the media. I have to watch for such things and do so via processes of deep reflection and prayer.
My background is as a mother who chose to have her babies during a difficult period of life and has never been in the position to have to make such a terrible decision.
However, I have been with women who have been in such situations and I know intimately how difficult it is and how amazing these women are, whether they choose one path or another.
I think women are charged with having to make such tough choices from time to time and if they are sincere, in good relation to God, etc., they are capable of finding the best option. They also have the ability and power to live with such a decision even if it means they will be haunted by grief and sorrow for the rest of their lives.
Should we as a civilized society really disrespect women by thinking they couldn't possibly be mature and wise enough to make such tough decisions?
Should we deny women access to all the options, including a clean, sterile and medical setting with skilled assistants if necessary?
As a RN OB nurse, childbirth educator, lactation consultant and home birth midwife, I have been with women who have chosen to continue their pregnancies and give birth to their babies in high risk and very tough home environmental situations, i.e. abusive partners, inabililty to meet basic needs, 13 + kids like in the Amish community, etc. They were aware of the consequences and chose to accept them.
In my current role as a RN Intake Assessor for a state assistance program I have also met many parents who are struggling to care for children with cognitive and developmental disabilities, including extreme behavioural outbursts. Such kids/families do not qualify for the Ohio Home Care program. The MRDD waivers are suppose to meet their needs but those programs don't have adequate funding. These folks are desparate, have no where to turn, and it breaks my heart to tell them they don't meet the eligibility requirements.
Sarah Palin is lucky and priviledged to have someone else tote and care for her little child with Down's Syndrome. I don't know anyone around here with that kind of support or ability to pay for almost continual babysitter/assistant services. Perhaps the woman who was carrying her baby around during the convention, etc., is the baby's sister, but is it fair for her to have to assume such responsibilities?
My point in all that is not that such disabled children should be prevented from coming into the world, but rather we all need to do something to ensure all parents have access to the help they need. Or, do we really want to be a civilization that says tough luck, you're on your own.
I will add that I think we need to work toward rebuilding our family, community and faith-based structures instead of depending on governmental social aid. But, are we all doing what we can to to strengthen those systems or are we just arguing about abortion rights while passing judgements about other people's decisions?
I have also listened to the stories from older women, including my mother-in-law, about back alley abortions. The images remain and they make me crinch to this day.
As a hospice and palliative care nurse I have also been with folks who have had to make extremely difficult decisions regarding quality of life and/or death. What options/rights do they have? oops..that's another topic.
Folks are amazing when it comes down to these hard-core aspects of life. As a professional I honor the rights people have for respect and dignity even if I disagree with some of their decisions. As a human, I am interested in developing my heart of service with compassion and forgiveness as underlying tenets.
Is it for us to decide that women, or anyone, should be denied safe and civilized options especially if it such services are not being funded via our tax payor dollars?
What about the 95 year old guy who has heart problems, is in denial about his natural life span but still insists upon getting a heart transplant? Does he have a right to that heart and all the resources it will take from others in society, even if he has the dollars to pay for it? (oops...another side track. I promise I will work on staying on topic, it's just that there are so many inter-related aspects to such things.)
So, as you can see, I have more questions than answers or opinions on such matters. I actually prefer, as touched on above, to think about the goal oriented strategies.
If we don't agree with abortion rights what should we do to ensure all babies have loving parents and a home that can adequately meet their needs, food, clothing, warmth, health care, education, etc. Also what can we do to ensure that those parents have some respite so their marriage and family can remain healthy and intact?
Perhaps Jerry, Bro Freddie and/or some of our other religious/spiritual guides and elders could also offer a blessing and some tips from the good Lord before we embark on this conversational journey.
Perhaps they could also add their own input from their hearts and a biblical sense while helping to make sure we maintain a proper attitude toward each other.
How would Jesus behave and respond around this campfire ring?
What would Jesus have to say to a women in distress over a pregnancy?
What would he do to help her and her unborn child?
See...more questions than answers.
Agreements:
Paws rules: courtesy and respect.
To expand on those:
- I'll strive not to make assumptions or take things personally.
- I'll strive to be open-minded, to listen and respect all points of view.
- I'll strive to accept where you are coming from and suspend my judgement as best as I can.
- I'll strive to maintain a position of curiosity; to seek to understand your points of view rather than to persuade you to my way of thinking or viewing the world.
- I'll strive to maintain a sense of discovery while looking for new insights.
- I will do my best to be sincere and speak from my heart with meaning.
- And yes, I will try to write clearly, briefly and not go on and on and on.
Can you agree to these things? If so, I'll feel safer venturing out on the dance floor.
Do you even still want to dance and/or share in good cup'o joe around the campfire?
Are there any other agreements that you or anyone would like to add to the list above?
Love, kj